Korean Acupuncture Charts & Point Names

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by unknown-KJN, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I 'm sorry to report that no physical structures have been linked to the channels, at least none that I'm aware of. :(

    I once heard that a doctor in red China had performed a vivisection (during the 1970's) and was able to determine molecule-sized pathways, which *collapse* upon death and are therefore unnoticeable when compared to the other surrounding tissues. Not being a doctor nor a licensed acupuncturist at the time, I didn't save the info (so it's just hearsay now - LOL). I suppose such a premise makes sense, but I think it wasn't very reliable regardless.

    The pathways are not as much a mystery to proponents of qigong, but experts among this group of individuals seem to be rather tight-lipped when it comes to sharing vital info with (western) medical doctors.
     
  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Then how do you explain the effort involved with closing off the perineum? No matter how many Kegel exercises you do as a matter of routine, I don't know of any way to explain the flexing of the pelvic floor tissues than to say that quite a bit of effort is made at "tensing" them. Wouldn't you agree? So why would it matter if the same sort of effort was necessary for the tongue placement?

    FWIW, I never heard of of Arnold Kegel until a few years ago, and had always simply referred to the pelvic floor flexion advocated in qigong as "tightening the lower diaphragm."
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  3. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    I have deleted my last posting because it was not worded very well and may cause more confusion than clarification.

    As to the tension of holding up the perineum (in general but there is more to it than that), there is a difference between "hold up/draw in/close" (and a few other such words used to describe the methods used on the various structures in the area) and words such as "clinch/tighten/etc".

    You may find the analogy of suction through a straw relevant in how to "hold up/draw in/close" without tension. It is from an increase in negative pressure internally that liquid is drawn up the straw. The same for sealing the perineum (in general but there is more to it than that).

    I am aware that certain authors such as Mantak Chia advocate obvious strenuous or hard physical effort in their take on "hold up/draw in/close". I do not agree with it.

    We know that tension stagnates the movement of Ki. Since we know this is a base principle, why would we act counter to it in an exercise designed to move Ki?
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  4. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    It wasn't worded poorly IMO, but you have every right to delete it if you so desire. FWIW, I wasn't confused, and am also aware of the 2 placements of the tongue to the soft palate.

    Explaining the "sucking" aspect in relation to the *closing off* of the lower diaphragm and then stating your POV as being different than master Chia's, would clarify anything that might be misconstrued from the deleted post. But what's done is done and I thank you for sharing nonetheless. :bow1:
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  5. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    In what I have read and heard regarding internal training, I have always noted when certain things are contrary to base principles. Often those making the statements do not rectify the apparent discord and raise as many questions as they answer. Such (mis)understandings lead to practices of very hard tension exercises seen in certain arts, greatly slow progress, or lead to a dead end in results. I assert that this is not correct. Therefore, take the information you find on internal training with a grain of salt. Understand the objectives first. Then study the methods. If the methods are contrary to the objectives, there must be something poorly or incorrectly stated. Observe base principles.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2011
  6. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks. I elected to cite the Yellow Emperor as I can't be very sure that the people who make contributions on WP know what they are talking about. Its not that they don't but only that when I am checking on things I don't know much about I get concerned about using a resource that pretty-much anyone can toss in what they like.

    BTW: Do you have any way of checking resources such as are found in WP, say, for the subject at hand? Comments?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I agree with everything you hav e written to the extent that I understand the subject. I also think that you would agree that unless we can make practical application of the information, the subject is entirely academic, right?

    The reason I mention this is that I teach PAL DAN KUM (lit" Eight Pieces of Brocade") after the manner in which I was taught and never thought much about it. Recently, as part of the KWON BEOP research I was examining the diagrams by CHEN Xin in his book. Purported the diagrams demonstrate how the energy moves while executing particular methods. I could be just me, but it seems as though the PAL DAN KUM methods are n ot entirely in-synch with each other. So this raises an interesting conundrum.

    a.) From the standpoint of honoring one's Teacher, ought the material be taught the way it was learned?

    b.) If the material can be "corrected" to more accurately facillitate what is thought to be going on, should it be corrected and how might one know that the correction is an improvement? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  8. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I've said it before, but I don't mind repeating myself... When my MA instructor taught the traditional names of the acupoints, as well as how to locate them on the human form, it was not so that I would decide to become a TCM practitioner, but rather to utilize them for instruction of where to attack with my MA techniques.

    I believe, Bruce, that you have stated before that learning only 50 or so points would be adequate for such an endeavor, but unfortunately that's not how my teacher went about it. He preferred to include ALL of the acupoints, and I must say that I'm grateful he did, as it helped to illuminate other aspects that are tied to the entire theory & principle surrounding such mystical concepts (note: just so I'm not misunderstood, I don't mean "mystical" in the religious context). His reasoning was such, that he would be able to teach a form by simply calling out a a series of points, so long as those being instructed had done their homework (from a given posture, there conceivably would be a limited number of ways to attack any given point, thus eliminating erroneous "guesses" about how one should move into the next posture).

    Unfortunately, almost no one heeded his advice to commit the list of points to memory (I doubt I could get very far nowadays despite once being very close to completion), and so this method of teaching hyeong never made it to the table. However, I guess I should mention that this idea was eventually utilized to teach a sword form, but rather than call out the points in order to invoke a movement, the points were merely recited to help envision a target whilst slicing the air in front of yourself.

    Hopefully this helps to explain my reason for doing this thread, despite there being other sources which list the korean names for the acupoints. Almost every acupuncture chart I've ever come across, if including romanized asian names for the points (other than the numerical designations), has been in pinyin chinese. So providing a list for the sake of being able to make comparisons made sense to me. The 2nd volume of the KSW textbooks has a list in the back of all the points in korean & english, while GtW lists them in chines & english, and so I included content from both of these sources in making the comparisons.

    As far as discussion of qigong and related practices is concerned, it could transition to it's own thread IMO, or since it's already been tacked onto this one (which was completed by my estimation), such discourse can continue — it's really up to our fellow MAPers. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    And I think thats a very wise distinction to make. I'm sure that a meaningful investigation would reveal that most folks only use these points as ways of locating a structure (IE. "target"). Nothing wrong with that. I would hate to have someonhe learn all of the points, read-up a bit on massage and suddenly represent themselves as a health option. Stranger things have happened, right?

    But now consider the nature of QiGong as it relates to, say, resusitation. Or how about the matter of individual QiGong to cultivate wholesome well-being. Yes, its true that we can go to a class and the person at the head of the class is "teaching" something, but do we have a sense of whether what they are teaching will have the outcome that we're told it will? How about DON JEON Breathing? Do we know if we are doing a practice that is in-synch with accurate information or is it a kind of "act-of-faith" (IE. "Teacher says this stuff is good for me, so it must be.") Has anybody actually cross-checked various practices to ascertain whether what is being done is actually what it is represented to be? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    If something can be shown to be effective, how much cross-referencing needs to be done?

    You did make me chuckle, though, as I initially read what you wrote as "don juan" breathing. ROFL
     
  11. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i thought the same thing too, sir. i almost had a wealth of information to disseminate. oh well.
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Ok, "Don" :Angel:

    You touched on the first step: How do we demonstrate that something is "effective"? I know that I can use two points to address a headache and usually find the pain has diminished in about 1/2 hours---about the same as a couyple of ADVIL. I feel pretty good about that.

    Then we have various QI-Gong techniques, but is there anyway to measure "success' with those practices? For instance, if I take an elastic bandage and wrap it tightly around my arm, the blood gets cut-off and my arm "goes to sleep". Take the bandage off and the arm stops tingling and the color returns to normal. Can we do something like that with the flow of KI?

    What got me thinking like this was the vast difference I feel between performing the Okinawan KATA I learned a long while ago and practicing the HAPKIDO HYUNG that my teacher designed. Fact is that I feel MUCH better doing the Okinawan forms than the Hapkido forms, though its very difficult to quantify what I mean by that. Any of this make sense?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Just cuz I said basing things off of "effectiveness" was a smart way to go, doesn't mean you shouldn't contribute your "wealth of information." :dunno:

    The two authors I mentioned seem to agree, for the most part, on how one should do the qigong meditation. There are other books I've read which state more or less the same concepts, and I've also heard it explained by various people who are either demonstrably adept, or who've studied under such a skilled person. But it's in the little things which AREN'T the same amongst all these various methods that is most telling IMO, as even a very small & subtle differentiation can "make all the difference in the world." This is why I tend to like what SeongIn has mentioned about following the natural course of the energy through the body, since anyone would scoff at the idea of trying to make blood RETURN to the heart via the arteries (that's why there are VEINS) and therefore to suggest that the energy travel BACKWARDS along a certain channel, is contrary in more ways than one.




    BION, it does, Bruce. In the manner in which I was taught, if qigong exercises are done properly, your sensitivity to the flow of KI is heightened. There are 2 implications you can do with this result: the first is to pursue TCM, as you are light-years ahead of anyone simply piddling around with the knowledge base, due to this heightened sensitivity. The second is to utilize it in perfecting your MA movements, as any *posture* you take can, by virtue of this sensitivity, easily be determined as to whether it's functional or not. You may recall me being rather adamant about leaning forward (just not too much) when doing a "front stance" and chiding those who advocate arching the lower back in order to be more "50/50" with their balance. Well, not only is the idea of your momentum to be going forward with this posture, but keeping a *neutral* spinal alignment is another factor that was stressed to me when learning the front stance (aka: [archer's] bow stance, mountain-climbing stance, bent front-leg stance), as such alignment allows the KI to flow more freely. The "tucking in" of the pelvis when assuming a horse-riding stance is also part of this neutral spinal alignment thing, but I'm sure you're already aware of that. What I'm trying to convey, is that unless this stuff is taught illustrating how it all interconnects, one is very likely to miss "the big picture." And even if it is taught conjunctively, not everyone will embrace this aspect fully, but that doesn't mean people should matter-of-factly discount the obvious connection. Wouldn't you agree?.
     
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    i was talking about giving a wealth of information about being a don juan, sir, as i have only read about the embryonic and microcosmic orbit of dr. yang(seongin sabeom also helped clarify some things via pm before as well)....and i was being sarcastic because my dating advice is terrible.

    but i guess i can take a crack at it. proper alignment is important to keep the meridians functioning smoothly, but the conundrum i think mr sims may have is that maybe his body agrees more with okinawan style patterns. i mean, there are links between the crane patterns of okinawa and of taiwanese white crane boxing. there is a qigong purpose for these forms, but maybe if mr. simms tried the taiwanese version he would feel better. maybe not.

    the okinawan versions would probably be easier on the joints via less twists, but twist stimulate the five organs in ways that benifit the body as well, right?
     
  15. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Yes, I've heard similar advice, but seeing as how we both study Kuk Sool and not HKD -or some other variant of HKD- it doesn't surprise me one bit. :Alien:


    Apologies, as I am a little slow on the uptake at times. However, your humor is much appreciated. :cool:
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I agree most completely and believe this ought be the next step in applying TCM insights into what we do (or don't do). In this way, I suspect we could reap some of the same benefits (in its own way) as some of the sports authirites have done when they actually examined what they were doing and discovered things like "Deep-Knee-Bends" really ain't that good for a person.

    I remember growing-up (back in the Dark Ages) and trusting that the guy leading the PE class really knew what he was doing because he was the teacher. Nowadays the Modern Sports Medicine people would have a field-day with that curriculum!!

    In like manner, I think if we could harness these TCM insights to optimize practice, the arts may move forward quite a bit, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  17. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    there are tcm universities. if we had access to their graduate level research, would they cross-reference as well as some of the books we read off the bookstore shelves?
     
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    That makes great sense to me. My own fear is that the bookstore chains pander to commercial interests and that would include people who only want to dabble. In this way I can imagine someone publishing a book on TCM-for-weight-loss but not having much of a solid foundation in overall theory and practice.

    In the Chicago area I have noticed a steady increase in the number of Chiropractic offices that have begun to put out shingles for "acupuncture" and "massage" and I have to wonder just how thorough their appeciation is for what they are doing and offering. I think MA that tout a strong connection to TCM need to consider the same thing. Its a very common selling point in the KMA to say, "...oh, we have that, too" and just tack-on some new bit. Though slower to develop, I think people are far more taken with realizing that their teacher really knows his stuff, rather than just hearing someone spout some "buzzwords". FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  19. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    Acupuncture needle found in ex-S.Korea president's lung

    so what do you think went wrong here then?
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110504/od_nm/us_korea_roh

    If thats typical of acupuncture treatment, I think I'll leave it thanks!
    I presume he could afford to pay for top quality treatment? If thats the best, god help the rest!
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I can't imagine one of the needles that my doctor uses being substantial enough to penetrate the thoracic wall from the outside. OTOH I can't imagine being able to inhale such an item through the air passages into the lung itself.

    Is a puzzlement.....

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     

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