Kodokudo.an Judo vs. Sport Judo

Discussion in 'Judo' started by humbleservant_7, Jun 9, 2011.

  1. humbleservant_7

    humbleservant_7 New Member

    Kodokan Judo vs. Sport Judo

    I had never even heard of such a distinction as I was under the impression that Kano made all the schools the same and sought out to make judo the sport that it is today.

    At least that was Wikipedia's definition of Judo..

    Up until I tried to sign up for classes, I happen to run across a huge debate about how apparently the sport was not the "true creation" of Mr. Kano's and how it was nothing but a bastardization of what he visualized.

    Can anyone help verify whether this is true or not?

    Are there really that big of differences between Kodokan Judo and the Olympic sport?
    and if so-- what's the best way of telling which one is the Kodokan school so that I can hurry up and sign up for it and start training right away today. I live in St. louis, Missouri.

    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    kano was the main proponent of making judo an olympic sport, based on what i know of judo. he was also alive when the rules changes went into effect, making judo more of a standup game. i would think that any rules changes would have to go through the guy who invented the art. but i don't know of the history of the adoption of the changes, specifically.

    yeah, i've heard the same thing, on internet forums of course. in my view, judo equals kodokan judo.
  3. humbleservant_7

    humbleservant_7 New Member

    Giovanni-- this is what I first thought to before ever happening to stumble in on this conversation.:


    As you can see from that forum^^, someone else also asked a similar question-- which could have easily been answered in the same fashion you proposed Giovanni-- but quite a few of them faultered when approached by the user Draven.

    Some of these guys are black belts and have much more knowledge and experience in judo than I do (I'm not even a beginner)-- so that is what lead me to believe that what Draven said here could possibly be true.

    Here's another one that was brought up:
  4. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Just two cents from a n00b

    As I understand it, judo as taught by Kano himself incorporated "self-defence" techniques, including strikes, but they were restricted to kata because he couldn't think of a way to safely incorporate them into randori. When judo became a sport, most clubs let those techniques fall by the wayside as success in competition was the main goal.

    I'm of the opinion that kata is a waste of time anyway so it doesn't bother me. As for sport, I think it's a good thing for martial arts (as long as the rules are not too stupid) as it breeds a culture of honesty in training.

    I know that's not exactly what you asked, but it seems to me that you're perhaps asking the wrong question here. It doesn't matter if your training is exactly what Kano envisaged as long as it's effective for your goals. Judo is not like other "traditional" arts that teach unerring adherence to the word of a God-like founder - there's nothing wrong with moving things forward per se.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2011
  5. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    All judo is Kodokan judo. Training should be made up of randori (for the sake of argument include uchi komi in this), shiai (competition) and sorry....kata.

    Kata is just a learning tool, it breaks down techniques and is one of the best ways to learn and grasp the principles of judo such as kuzushi (breaking balance), shizentai (posture) or tai sabaki (body management). Kata will help a judoka develop his or her techniques and overall understanding of judo. If it's just seen as having to learn a set of pre determined moves for the sake of it or to pass a test, then yes it is a waste of time.

    Randori also should be seen as a chance to experiment and be trained at different levels of resistance, you should also be helping your partner. There would be no point in a black belt hammering a yellow belt into the mat the whole time in randori, both can get something from it.

    Shiai is the opportunity to really test yourself.

    Some judoka will over emphasise different aspects of the above, or change focus at different points in their life but it is all Kodokan judo.
  6. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Really well said. I'm a big believer that no matter how much resistance is being applied, the exercise needs to be productive for both students, or it is useless.

    Agree that kata has it's place too. In Judo contect what does uchi komi mean?
  7. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i agree that it goes without saying that kodokan judo is kata, randori and shiai. maybe some places put more emphasis on shiai than others, hence the "sport" judo. i guess, don't really know. the place i studied judo at (and i'm just a beginner in both judo and bjj) emphasized all three phases.
  8. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    Uchi komi is just repetitions or drills either static or on the move, usually just the balance breaking and entry. Nage Komi is the same but completes the full throw. Both very important.
  9. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Generally when speaking of judo the differentiation is between "sports judo" and "traditional judo" because it is all kodokan judo. The difference comes about in training methods, not in what is actually taught. Having trained at quite a few clubs, from my observation it's a sliding scale. At one end you have your typical small judo club which focuses very much on what they consider the "old" style of judo - very little competition focus and lots of focus on the gokyo no waza. They'll do a bit of uchi komi (not much) and learn everything in a very "academic" manner - starting at the beginning of the gokyo and slowly working through the whole curriculum, like lots of other traditional styles.
    On the other end is your elite competition dojo. At these dojo, there is LOTS of high rep uchi komi, grip fighting practice and a majority of time spent on a small variety of competition oriented throws, combinations and countering. Training sessions are very intense and require a high level of fitness to get through.

    As I said above, this is really on a sliding scale. There is no stark sport vs traditional dichotomy, even most traditional places will enter the occasional competition and do some randori, and even most competition dojo will do some kata here and there too.
  10. mike.Budo

    mike.Budo Valued Member

    Greetings Each

    As far as I am aware on of the first to breakaway from the Kodokan was Kinshiro Abbe who started the Kyu Shin~Do .
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2011
  11. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    this is a long standing debate, but as far as finding a club the question is academic, outside of japan Judo will be Judo wherever you go.
  12. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Kano turned it into a sport so olympic judo is kodokan.
    However many techniques have been removed due to their dangers in competition and many places wont teach them.
    I believe that we should learn these techniques (Kosen Judo holds true to much of this, from what i understand).
  13. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    leg take downs, leg locks, Kani Basami ? all politics nothing to do with danger really.
  14. Hugh Jass

    Hugh Jass Valued Member

    Kosen judo is a massive red herring in any discussion. Kosen simply means 'high school' and was just a set of rules used for schools competitions in japan. Good luck finding anywhere authentic that will actually teach something called 'kosen judo.'

    Check out the judoforum.com, its been done to death over there.
  15. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    By Kosen Judo i meant the imperial uni's of japan that still compete under old judo rules. maybe thats changed now, but i wouldnt learn it anywhere except those uni's.
    few judo clubs teach pre-olympic techniques.
  16. dlloyd

    dlloyd Valued Member

    Abbe's judo was plain old Kodokan judo.
  17. dlloyd

    dlloyd Valued Member

    All judo clubs teach pre-olympic techniques.

    "Kosen" means "High School". Kosen judo is simply Kodokan judo as taught to school kids in the early 20th century. To minimize injuries there was more emphasis on ne-waza (traditional tatami aren't as soft as modern mats) and tachi waza was introduced slowly.

    While it may be tempting to imagine it as some mythical Japanese art that BJJ sprang from, Kosen Judo does not exist as a distinct style, and the need to lay off the tachi-waza no longer exists in Japanese schools. They've got decent mats now.
  18. Herbo

    Herbo Valued Member

    Kosen is an abbreviation for Koutosenmongakko 高等専門学校, a group of high educational institutions in Japan and their intercollegiate competitions.
    Therefore you can study Judo with a focus on groundwork, but unless you compete for one of these institutions under their ruleset, it isn't Kosen Judo.
  19. dlloyd

    dlloyd Valued Member

    Yes. Kotosenmon gakko literally means "higher expert school" and refers to vocational educational schools which cover the age range covered in the west by upper secondary schools and vocational technical colleges (Btec level in the UK).

    If you study at any of these colleges and, as part of your studies, learn judo you are technically doing "Kosen Judo", (just as we might compete in "University Judo"). They used to compete using different rule sets (like forty or fifty years ago), but these days it is no different to Judo learned anywhere else in Japan.
  20. ghostdzog

    ghostdzog New Member

    Hope no one minds me reviving this post. I feel I have something to offer on the subject.

    Kodokan Judo and Judo found else where is all still Judo.

    Although from my own research and understanding, the techniques used, the way techniques are performed and the reason why people train can be different depending on the individual and the club that they train at and this designates as to whether you are a good judoka and doing good judo or not.

    If you research into the origins of Judo, you will find that Judo was created by Jigoro Kano not only as a sport and a martial art but a way of socio-development within society and is in a lot of ways associated with the Japanese history, culture and religious/spiritual values > i.e. a quasi buddhist method for self perfection and enlightenment through the hardship of training (that pushes a persons spirit past their materialistic senses so as to purify and strengthen the spirit).

    Kodokan Judo emphasizes good technique that uses the scientific technical skills of the player over techniques that use only pure physical strength.

    Kodokan Judo originally used competition to prove that Judo was effective and that Kano's innovative training methods gave his students more skill than the older methods of training.

    I believe (and i may be wrong) the original matches between Kano and the ju jutsu schools were designed to prove a point rather than to create a system of champions.

    I believe that you can do Judo as a form of spiritual path and still be a competitor.
    Kodokan holds red and white champs every two weeks, so that this would also suggest so.

    I personally feel that it is how these competitions affect the ego is what separates Judoka, from good to bad.
    With Japanese minded Judoka training for perfection and self perfection, using competitions to measure their progress, which is different to perhaps an obsessively competitive westerner with a massive mouth and ego (donald Trump Judo?) who will do anything to win, including breaking the law and the rules of etiquette (such as bullying others) all in order to win a piece of plastic.

    To me the latter person doesn't really do Kodokan Judo, even if they are excellent at fighting, as by cheating and being abusive, they have lost their integrity and caused disharmony in the world (rather than made the world a better place).

    You may say that people who follow the "spiritual" path do so because they are crap or scared.
    However, if you do your research, you will find than many of the past world judo champions prescribe to this spiritual mindset.
    Yasuhiro Yamashita for example, the undefeated heavyweight champion is one notable proponent of the spiritual emphasis of kodokan JuDo. Another, the amazing judo genius Katsuhiko Kashiwazaki is also and teaches at the Budo University in Japan.



    I believe the Gracie family also promote the spiritual path as their focus behind training in jiu jutsu and legends such as Rickson Gracie are quiet clear about this.
    Helio Gracie was also known to be discouraged by some of the people who took part in MMA, feeling that some of the people were no more than petty and malicious criminals.

    I personally feel that combining realistic randori and competitions, with a spiritual path is the best combination in all martial arts, and their is no reason why a person train even in MMA with this mindset.

    In Japan, over recent years, a couple of Japanese MMA styles have popped up with this "budo" emphasis. One style called Kudo in particular caught my eye and appears to combine Judo, Kyokushinkai knockdown karate with a "Do" mindset.

    This MMA style also emphasises safety as the fighters wear headguards with perspex face plates during matches in order to protect themselves from brain damage.

    So, in short, if you train Judo to make yourself better, to make the world better and to have fun in competitions then you are doing Judo (although technically, it depends on the quality of your technique that will determine as to whether your Judo is technically good or not).

    If you are training in Judo with an atitude of win at any cost, to bully others, to hurt people, to make your mouth and head bigger. To be arrogant, to victimise the weak etc.
    the although you are doing the techniques of Judo, you are not actually doing Judo but only the physical techniques of Judo - perhaps just Ju.

    If you want to learn more on this subject, I recently discovered an interested book on the Kodokan Judo Online Shop:

    Jigoro Kano and the Kodokan

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016

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