knife defense

Discussion in 'Karate' started by gojuman, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Gojuman; Sorry there, I was editing while you were posting.

    I think that our diff. of opinion are just style differences. We gen. block & stun, the momentary shock to the attacker allows us to move without any counter move by the attacker. But, you seem to work on a straight through flow style. Its all good, we're just comparing "pattern defenses".

    Ya, I think it is a good technique. I think inorder for it to work the way your doing it the attacker would have to be commited to thrusting through you so that there was enough range of motion to get under the arm.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2003
  2. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    Ya, I think it is a good technique. I think inorder for it to work the way your doing it the attacker would have to be commited to thrusting through you so that there was enough range of motion to get under the arm. [/B][/QUOTE]

    JJ
    A knife attacker will be so intent on driving the blade into you it will be very natural to steer his arm over your shoulder. when you grab his instinct will not be to pull away but to keep thrusting and all he will care about is the weapon.
     
  3. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Okay Gojuman, but I hope you never get an attacker that is more interested in cutting you up like an escrimador as opposed to just stabing you. But in that vane, what are your thoughts on our pattern defense for "right thrust" that I posted earlier?
     
  4. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    what you describe is similar I think to what I do. If I picture your wing block I think it is what I do and then I grab his wrist with my right, turning his palm up and then I wrap my left over his bicep and curl my left forearm under his arm behind his elbow. I refer to this as a snake arm hold. from this position I have a very good fulcrom with which to break his elbow.
     
  5. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Our wing block is w/ arm hanging down & rotating hips to engage your bicep into the fully extended elbow. The break & fold action in this pattern is very fast w/ hips pivoting into break then reversing into fold.
     
  6. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    I think I get it. Sounds good.
     
  7. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I still like a two handed grab to the arm, often works best in a frenzied attack that could leave your blocking arm vulnerable.
     
  8. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Ya, maybe, depends on a lot of things. I tend to look at pattern defenses as tools to learn body mechanics and body movement, in a real fight you had better be moving instinctively because the first thing out the window is the plan.

    Do you want to continue this Gojuman? If so, which attack?:)
     
  9. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    How about an attack were the attacker is very close before you see the knife (almost grappling range)
     
  10. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    For what Gojuman wants to talk about here we need a specific attack path.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2003
  11. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    jjj,
    Precisley why one should practice in a controlled environment to really sharpen the defense moves, so that in a reallity situation instinct takes over and the proper execution takes place. And, here's hoping that we never have to use a knife defense, because all the prparation and effort can still lead to a bad rusult.
    We practice a number one technique for all concevable angles of attack, and then we practice alternatives to the number one and so on so that we develop a long list of defense options to use if something should ever fale.
    TO PGM,
    If you are suprised and crowded into like you suggest you must just try and control the weapon so that it does not cut you. Getting out of the line of fire is best, but control is essential to survival.
     
  12. pocketwarrior

    pocketwarrior New Member

    I have to agree with combatant, in most real life situations block and counters do not work. In any knife situation the chances of you getting cut are extremely high....
     
  13. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    Absolutly! Block and counter is a recepe for disaster. What I said was control the weapon and this it not done with a block or pary but with a strong grab with 2 hands and then move on to a control hold to break the wrist, elbow, etc...
    PS
    Off line for the day
     
  14. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    [ gojuman ]"If you are surprised and crowded into like you suggest you must just try and control the weapon so that it does not cut you. Getting out of the line of fire is best, but control is essential to survival."

    Not getting cut probably isn't an option & I don't agree w/ your last sentence the way you put it, some concepts are important but nothing is essential to every situation. If someone surprises me at close range w/ a knife thrust and all I can do is dodge & brush block w/ right forearm and strike his throat w/ left hand, I never controlled the weapon up to that point & survived nicely. Even if I take a bad cut to the arm, its better than betting my life on trying to catch someones hands at close range. Training is training and hopefully you develope enough instincts to do what ever the situation requires to survive.
    An attacker most likely won't feed you a strike. Just full contact spar sometime and see how many jabs you catch in your hands & not turn into a tug-a-war, good luck.

    Also, I'm a little confused. Earlier you jumped on me ( and my teacher, errrr) a little about wanting to discuss variables in knife attacks ...

    "Who is your sensei cal_jjj?
    Foot placement does not supercede the need to get out of the line of fire and control the weapon."

    ...and even mis-stated what I was discussing. So, I switched to training conditions "Pattern defenses" like you wanted & now your going on about catching hands at close range and not getting cut in knife attacks, and you seem to know for a fact that every attacker will continue to thrust when you grab his hand and not pull back.:confused: :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2003
  15. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    JJJ ,
    I asked you who was your sensei, because I was interested. Not to offend, and I'm sorry for the missunderstanding.
    My point on the thrusting of the attack issue comes from my master's experience since I have not hade the pleasure or displeasure of fighting someone with a knife. He has . And as a 10th Dan I am inclined to listen to what he has to say. I think too that fighting or sparring full contact while approaching reallity actually is not as real as everyone thinks. IT is very different having a guy with a rubber knife come at you "full contact" knowing that you will try and block or grab or what ever than a real assault with a blade with intent to stab, cut etc.. The rubber knife guy will be prepared and since even though it is "full contact" you will not break the arm, or poke out his eye or snap the wrist, and that is why these full contact practices end up in a tug of war. I dont think that there is no chance of these tug of wars happening in reallity, but even so I would much rather get a grip on the weapon wrist so that I have a chance to control the situation.
    One lesson I have been taught is that someone ,an attacker, whoes adrenelin is way up, either naturaly because of the excitement of the situation or induced by drugs is often impervious to the hardest strike. We have police officers in our ryu who attest to wittnessing a person who is high on some wild stuff absorb several full contact strikes from nunchakus and not even hesitate let alone stop attacking. So, I think that I would have to hit some one awfuly hard to disrupt their knife attack on me. I think that if I take advantage of movement, momentum , balance and utilize the out of the line of fire control the weapon and dissarm I will be better off than striking first. If I do not knock him out with the first blow he still has the knife and will continue the attack, but if I control the weapon I have a chance for my technology to work the situation.
    Thanks for the exchange.
    Oos
     
  16. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Gojuman;

    Sorry if I got a little grumpy, long day yesterday and I was probably reading too much into your punctuation. It is one of the problems w/ this kind of comms.

    You can get info on Sensei Pietrelli & Ingebretsen at http://www.fusuikan.com or http://www.pckilohana.com or http://www.usadojo.com

    Your point about someone on drugs not responding to strikes like Joe punk feeds the point I was making about not setting up a ridged system for knife defense. Every situation is unique and deadly, best to move and exit.

    I still don't know how your going to disarm a person w/ a death grip on a knife prior to breaking him down to sumission and not get your fingers cut off in several situations.

    Take Care
    DavidM
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2003
  17. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    I still don't know how your going to disarm a person w/ a death grip on a knife prior to breaking him down to sumission and not get your hand cut off in several situations.

    JJJ,
    That's just the point. You do not wrestle the knife away before breaking the wrist or elbow. We practice a lot of aiki joint controls for this purpose. The "bar hold" works the "elbow break" is great. What I keep having to reinforce with my own students is the fact that the techniques are quite different in reallity than in practice. For instance, students will ask "can't he just pull away from that hold?" Of course he can if that is all you do, but in actuality the hold used breaks the wrist and elbow and dislocates the shoulder when fully applied, so the notion of pulling away can't happen.
    This to me is not unlike the kata or not to kata debate that rages within these forums. I believe that reality exists in the kata for the practice of very violent or deadly force, quite simpy because I would never be able to do to a sparring partner what I "pretend" to do in a kata. The same goes for applying a self-defense move on your uchi in the dojo. You stop the technique when it hurts, so you never really know what will happen when the guys arm is only hanging from cartlage.
     
  18. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Gojuman;
    At first read, I agree w/ everything in your last post. I just don't think you have a high percentage chance of accomplishing it the way your going about it against a good fighter. Its just the way I see based on my style of training/experience.

    It is a small style issue, so we probably aren't going to ever be on the same page w/ it. You have both hands occupied, your attacker has one hand free, you haven't inflicted any damage, & your going to make a major stance change to break his arm. I believe your chances are 50/50 on keeping the fight off the ground. One easy & natural counter would if he pivots on right foot (going w/ crank on arm) & grabbed your hair w/ free hand, & once he controls your head you loose your leverage.
     
  19. gojuman

    gojuman Valued Member

    This is where writing back and forth about this disagreement will continue to prove to be difficult. It is hard to describe precisley what the technique is with out visual demonstration. I must say though that I have had students supose that they could pivot or counter in some fashion until the hold is applied and they realize that they will have very little counter moves available.
    Also, the technique against a good fighter argument goes both ways and it is exactly the point I was making earlier about not being able to knock someone out with one blow and have them stop their knife assault. The reason for a 2 handed grab of the knife wrist that a strong attacker or good fighter will easily break free of a one handed grab, so worrying about the other hand will be pointless if he just breaks free of the grip and shakes off a strike.
    I will not say "just trust me", because I can tell that you have been trained well, and I respect your opinion, but I have demonstrated with others in person with the same argument that these things will work.
     
  20. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    Ya, Gojuman, agree there.
    On the last, keep in mind that I don't disagree w/ a two hand grab (I also have patterns w/ it), the diff. is more into : get off line / control knife, move, inflict damage, disarm, and I am more into : move off line / control knife / inflict damage, move / inflict damage, move / disarm.

    Very small diff. If you added some kind of kick w/ your initial control, they would be nearly the same frame work.

    Also, it is fun to split hairs & make comparisons, but don't get me wrong yours is as good a pattern def. as any ones for training. We're just kicking things around.:)
     

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