Knife Attack

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Silatyogi, Sep 4, 2005.

  1. RedBagani

    RedBagani Valued Member

    Soul Guru, your real name must be Count Dracula.
     
  2. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Alhamdulillah for this true knowledge, RedBagani, if I said Haleluyah it would mean the same too. Traditional silat aims to survive and ultimately lays everything in God's Hands. Only God and not silat can help you survive an attack with whatever weapon. However God has made available proper silat training in the physical and the spiritual so we should make use of this Blessing.

    Warm salaams to all,
    KC
     
  3. Sekaralas

    Sekaralas New Member

    ... and pre-traditional silat, Kiai, before the Wali Sanga were even a twinkle in their father's eyes, before Demak, before Islamisasi of Java, of Nusantara ... we were spiritual then too, and we were traditional as well, and silat was a practical way to fight, to protect life. For me it still is. My path is the path of man. I live as a man, and I have wordly problems. The ways of the gods are not a concern for me. The way of man however is woven in the tapestry of the tao, and so too are the way of gods ... if they exist. Is tao the same as Allah? Do we feel the same thing? Maybe, maybe not. Am I spiritual? Yes I am.

    I aknowledge that Islam is interwoven so much with Javanese culture ... but I wish I knew more of the pre Islam of my forebears. Silat is not necessary to be complementary with any God or other spiritual entity, unless one wants it to.
    Each of us have our own version of the IS or the IT or the Tao ...

    And another thing, we forget that we owe a lot of our silat to the Chinese traders who came through the islands of what is now Indonesia ... we owe a debt to the Chinese, and we don't for the most part like to admit it.
     
  4. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Salam Sekaralas,

    It is nice to read you again.

    Of course us pesilat owe alot to the Chinese as inspiration and as an imagined and real threat. Before the Walisanga the silat that existed was only available for the aristocracy and the outlaws like Arok from Tumapel and not much can be seen of it now. However if you look at the badui in Tengger (east Jawa, they follow a type of Hinduism) or in Banten (west Jawa they follow a monotheistic dynamism called agama Sunda Wiwitan) or look at old Bali you might be able to see the pre-Islam culture in Jawa. These cultures use alot of what might be called 'magic' in their martial culture. Amongst the peasants of Jawa where there is no silat the children used to 'gelut' -grapple and 'banting' -throw and kicking and punching were considered out-of-bounds. Pramoedya Ananta Toer's description of fights in the Kediri - Majapahit times use graples and throws and kicks but each fighter has an individual technique and style. I don't know how accurate they are but I know Pak Pram does thorough research, lahir and batin.

    Beginning with Prof Slamet Mulyana's research in the fifties - early sixties (book was banned in Indonesia) more and more recent historical studies have suggested (to the dismay of anti-Chinese Indonesian racists) that some of the leading Walisanga were in fact Chinese. The Ming eunuch admiral Zheng He and his armada also spent a long time on the north coast of Jawa and even the city Lasem (Lao Sam) was built by the Chinese. Raden Patah the founder of Demak and the conqueror of Majapahit also had a Chinese name Jin Bun, in Jawanese Senapati Jimbun.

    Further back during the Sriwijaya times there was also close contact with China and India and silat at that time must of also been in dialogue with these two superpowers. The oldest mention of Jawa as a civilization is probably in Valmiki's Ramayana and there was certainly silat at that time although it's name would not have been silat. During the Majapahit period silat was spread all over the military of the archipelago and in the early stages of Majapahit the Chinese were definitely seen as a threat. Then the Wali came and brought silat out of the barracks, modified it to fit with the Sufi path and brought it into the religious schools. I suspect that the silat the Wali brought to the masses was probably not much different from the silat that was there before but of course as some were silat geniuses they would have also left their own marks on the art that was later transmitted down the generations.

    When speaking about Islam and silat it might be useful to differentiate between Islam as submission to Allah (the religion of Adam, Abraham, Moses, John the Baptist, Jesus) and the particular religion brought by Muhammad SAW which put simply comprises of syahadat, sholat, zakat, shaum, and hajj as the path to submission.

    In the first sense what the Chinese call Tao is very much like what Muslims call Tauhid. However after the Wali most silat in Indonesia were most often part of pesantren education and mostly students begin with following the syariah and performing dzikir long before they begin movements sitting down on the floor. It would be interesting to compare silat that developed in the palace of the karaton like Merpati Putih from Kartasura and silat that developed in the pesantren like Cimande. Between the 15th century and the mid 20th century most Indonesian silat was Islam although there were the Islam Putihan in the pesantren and the Islam Abangan around the aristocracy, and gradually both became estranged from the later wave of Chinese migration which was Taoist and or Buddhist.

    The dialogue between pencak silat and Chinese arts has been a constant throughout history until now. One of the first modern traditional silat schools with Chinese influence in Indonesian silat might be PGB Bangau Putih which was developed by Subur Rahardja an inheritor of Pek Ho Pai in dialogue with many other Chinese and Indonesian martial arts. Without India and China there would be no classical Jawa however without the Jawa (and Padang, Madura, Bugis, ect) there would be no pencak silat.

    In relation to a knife attack I agree with what RedBagani wrote: when you are one with God, God is one with you, and that is the ultimate protection. This condition of being one with God is ultimately what the silat practitioner aims to achieve. Then (s)he has boundless energy as (s)he is one with the energy that makes the universe exist. According to the contemporary definition of pencak silat the art must have a spiritual aspect. Without God it can't be silat it might be Systema (from what I have seen on the web looks very silat-is to me) or something else.

    Yes silat is about winning fights but remember the ideal is to 'menang tanpa ngasorake' - to win without humiliating (putting down). There are different levels of winning a fight using silat the highest being without a fight and your opponent becomes enlightened like the way Muhammad SAW conquered Makkah. Mpu Baradah of Kahuripan (Kediri) repeated by Mangkunegara IV from the north of pasar Triwindu in Solo also said that the highest level of true knowledge is of bringing to life not of killing. One might fight once, twice, a hundred times in one's life but most of the time one is breathing, eating, sleeping, working, making love, praying and just doing simple everyday things. Silat should make you a winner in all these everyday activities not only in fighting a human attacker.

    Warm salaams to all.
    KC
     
  5. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    <<In the first sense what the Chinese call Tao is very much like what Muslims call Tauhid>>

    Indonesia has been influenced by all the great kingdoms. According to Bon Po tradition in Tibet, Nepal and what they call Zhung zhung (ancient China) the roots of Taoist and Bon Hermit shamanism & martial arts comes from Persia. I think if you want to find the roots you have to look at persian history. It all comes full circle of you dig deep enough.
     
  6. Sekaralas

    Sekaralas New Member

    I've been thinking about this topic ... and how so many discussions seem to gravitate to concepts of spirituality.
    I have pondered why I find the diversion to be disconcerting. To my mind it is because essentially I do not think of the life experience aa a 'now' and a 'hereafter'. To my way of experiencing life, this is already heaven and hell. My spiritual experience is body. It is here and now, I'm part of the Tao.
    When listen to people speak about their experience/belief systems in relation to silat, the experience sounds like there is an external agent on which they rely. What I am saying in my experience their is no external agent ... at least not one that I have become aware.
    I don't focus on fighting per se, but I use the idea of physical confrontation to develop my body intelligence - my body focus. The mind doesn't know, but the body does. Body knowledge can show the way ...
     
  7. rizal

    rizal Valued Member

    Back to Knife-fighting.
    My brother said that expect to be wounded in a knife fight. If you don't want to bleed than find another battleground (if the area is restricted) and get a longer weapon (even a tree branch would do). I always use this method if I am not certain how skillful my opponent is with a knife.
    Talking about shanks, I'm always impressed about how inmates can make weapons out of the simplest material. An acquintance of mine once showed me a shank made of wires. Very thin yes, but sturdy enough so you can puncture someone chest down to the heart. He then told me that best way to use this is actually by puncturing the skull, on the eggshell thin part on the temple, a behind the eye. Puncture it, wriggle it some, and lights out.
    Like every good killer, you begin with weapons that can hurt your opponent from far away and then graduate to weapons that bring you nearer to your opponent. Fortunately, not anyone understand this.
     
  8. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    in reference to what guru liam has said,ive seen cimande jurus done with a knife for both attack and defense with erratic off timing by both pendekar sanders and guru jerry jacobs and both seemed deadly precise in their offensive structure and able to defend off timing attacks using the village jurus...hope this info can help...liam i was in your country two years ago researching my family roots,i love ireland...
     
  9. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    i recently heard a top level silat guy talk about he trains west sumatran arts but trains filipino knife..yuck!i bet guru liam would agree,try to pass or tapi ,tap a blade used in erratic snake expression..i dont think the method he trains in would be able to pass the blade used by a knowing silat practioner..what do you think??????
     
  10. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I think the filipino knife has a lot going for it, and if he finds it more comfortable than the silat knife, then sure it's better than learning something he doesnt like, so to speak.
     
  11. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    so right sgt.major-but instead of doing rote drills-how about understanding of body mechanics and movement that allow you to express yourself outside the drills?the drills are good foundations,but they also are a trap for alot of people.do you understand?please give me feedback/
     
  12. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I agree. I'm not keen on drills, I prefer to get a jist of the drill, and then get those jists into my own 'patterns' or natural movements is perhaps a better way of putting it.
     
  13. RAMANA1

    RAMANA1 New Member

    thankyou sgt major ,i appreciate your reply...i hope to be in your neck of the woods in sept... :)
     

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