knife attack question

Discussion in 'Silat' started by AK-47, Jun 8, 2006.

  1. AK-47

    AK-47 New Member

    Your opponent holds his knife in his right hand and has his right foot forward (covered by the knife)...he takes small steps in your direction thrusting the knife in quick jab like motions towards your eyes/throat...No big steps, no lunging attacks...

    What would you do?
     
  2. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    Lots of this...
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Of course :)
    But what if you are trapped in an dead end alleyway, of club toilet etc.?
     
  4. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    I would probably spend a significant amount of bleeding and possibly a considerable amount of dying.

    Most people who tell you otherwise have probably vastly overestimated their skill against a knife-weilding opponent. Bear in mind that most people who practise knife defences do so against a fairly non-threatening and compliant "attacker" and are at a loss when the knife keeps moving.

    Every year I am invited to teach at a one-day seminar in which students from different systems are mixed together and are given short lessons by the various instructors throughout the day. One year I gave the "black-belt" group a different perspective on knife-defence. This group contained Ju Jitsu, Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Aikido practitioners.

    I selected a 4th Dan from one school and a 2nd Dan from another school. I gave a rubber knife to the 2nd Dan and told him he was to "kill" the 4th Dan. I told the 4th Dan he could do anything he wanted in order to survive the attack and disarm his attacker.

    As I imagined, the 2nd Dan attacked with a single thrust, stepping into a crisp, but static, forward stance. The 4th Dan did something or other, blocked the attack and disarmed the attacker, taking him to the floor and putting him in an arm-lock. Very nice. Very crisp.

    I then took the knife and attacked. This time, however, I kept the knife moving, stabbing and slashing repeatedly. The 4th Dan's blocks couldn't keep up. After a few seconds I stepped back so the class could see the black streaks of rubber all over his crisp white Gi.

    I then handed the knife to the 2nd Dan again and told him to do the same. This time, he succeeded in "killing" the 4th Dan.

    The class then paired off, twenty pairs in all. In each pair, one person had a rubber knife and the attackers were told to attack as if they meant to kill, not as if they were the "Uke" (as they say in the Japanese arts). I left them to it for a while. Suddenly, there were fewer "crisp" movements, no takedowns and no arm-locks. Both sides got to play the "attacker".

    At the end of the exercise, I asked how many of the 40 participants had survived even one "attack". One person put his hand up.

    So, despite years, even decades, of training, thirty-nine black-belts would have blindly gone into a knife defence and definitely got cut, probably killed and all because they had been training with the wrong tactics in mind.

    So, finally to answer your question...

    Apart from the bleeding and the dying, I would try to get a grip on the back of the wrist (the one holding the knife). Without controlling that wrist, I am almost certainly going to get stabbed. Of course, I would be trying to keep myself out of the path of the knife at all times (none of that "upward block against a downward stab" nonsense). This would involve considerable foot-work and timing. Once I had that grip, I would be able to keep the knife hand moving so as to keep it away from me, while upsetting the attacker's balance. Once his balance was gone, he would be mine.

    Are my footwork and timing good enough? I hope I never have to find out.

    Regards,

    Declan
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2006
  5. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Good responses from Declan. As Richard Pryor said about knife defense:

    If I weren't actually in the bathtub I'd have something at hand to make it a little more even. If I were enjoying the daily Toad Soak I'd probably pick up the cat (who likes amphibian-flavored broth) and throw him at the attacker and improvise from there.

    To answer your real question, it all depends. I haven't had a particularly interesting life, but I have had to deal with guys with knives once or twice. I don't think I ever used a pre-planned defense that I had learned in class. Elements of them came out in my response, at least I vaguely remember it that way. I never said "This attack is coming at that angle. I will now use Knife Counter three, variant one." So far whatever I did worked, thank G-d.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2006
  6. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    One of the people who drifted through Guru Plinck's class was a fifth degree black belt in a martial art that has a decent reputation out in the world. One a few guys, including one of his black belt students, was attacked by another bunch of guys. The black belt performed his well-practiced knife defense perfectly. And he died. Since then the 5th Dan has refused to teach any of his system's counter-knife techniques.
     
  7. Ular Sawa

    Ular Sawa Valued Member

    Makes sense. The sad part is that there are probably a lot of other teachers out there who still are...
     
  8. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    LOL! I'm not ashame to say, I was the first one on the picture :rolleyes:
    My two cents,
    1. If the person is trying to kill you, you probably all ready dead or at the very least have been stubb.
    2. If the person is trying to scare you, that exactly what he did, to scare you to get what he want.
    3. They were two choices: a) Take a control by trying to deescalate the situation and at the same time evaluate the probable escape route by any means.
    b) Or pretending you are the invicible or the master of knife fighter.
    My advice to you is to be a surviver not a dead hero, or the wannabe hero.
    The only time you have to fight is for your life or for your loved one life. PERIOD
    And I could be wrong too,
    Tristan
     
  9. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    your name is AK-47, try using it.
     
  10. AK-47

    AK-47 New Member

    Running is not always possible....

    I got attacked with a knife in a country famous for knife skills not so long ago. The thing was I was barefooted on a beach, running was not an option because: I was barefooted on a beach with wet long pants, at night, and the guy was a local. Survived but got cut.

    The question arouse because I had a sparring session a while ago with a filipino who is very good at arnis and also knows silat.
    :) Running would not have been an option too because this guy is also a PE instructor, teaching athletics....


    As declan said I suggested I tried to control the wrist and it didn't really work: I moved to the side triying to catch it and got 3 shots to the heart as a result. Triying to catch a jab-like strike is nearly impossible, at least at my level.
     
  11. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Hello AK-47,

    Why not trying to control the elbow before the wrist?

    Warm Salaams to all,
    KC.
     
  12. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    I know. I was partly being facetious and partly warning people that they should run from a knife whenever the situation allows it.
    In my experience, martial arts instructors tend to over-simplify knife defence. It requires excellent footwork and timing and even then, as in your case, you will probably get cut.

    Although I don't know the full details of your encounter, I believe you were correct in trying to control the wrist. Perhaps not on each of the jabs though. Have you ever seen that mad photographer, Austin Stevens, on the TV? His passion is photographing dangerous snakes. I've seen him grab a lunging, venomous snake. However, he doesn't try to grab the snake each time it feints, he moves just out of range with each feint and then tries to grab the snake behind the head when it launches a more committed attack. Personally, I think I would approach jab-like strikes the same way: try to stay out of the way until the attacker launches a more committed stab, then go for the wrist.

    Will that work? I hope I never have to find out.

    Regards,

    Declan

    Austin Stevens:
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    • The elbow is further away. In extra split-second it could take you to reach the elbow, you could get cut. Why take that chance?
    • Controlling the elbow still allows some movement in the hand. Your attacker could still point the knife towards you and cut you.
    • Controlling the wrist means you can direct the knife and it limits the attacker's cutting movement.

    Regards,

    Declan
     
  14. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    the wrist moves faster than the elbow tho, so it'd be easier for you to control the elbow.

    just my 2 cents
     
  15. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    The distance between the elbow and the wrist is around 30 cms.

    I think I'll go for not having the knife 30 cms closer to me (and still mobile) than it needs to be.

    Regards,

    Declan
     
  16. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    however, if you have moved your centre mass, as you should, you could have the knife 30cm FURTHER away from you by going for the elbow, than going for the wrist.
     
  17. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    OK. So now you have him by the elbow.

    What do you do next?

    Declan
     
  18. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    lol - I didnt say I had all the answers! :D
     
  19. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Hi Declan,

    Lucky to get to 'have' him by the elbow. To 'get' the elbow you need to move evasively forward and the right langkah could give you a chance to attack the wrist or go to his back or come inside to throw / arm-break. If you only 'get' him by the wrist his elbow might stil come in to whack you, and with a twist your wrist hold could be released. If you can touch his elbow and stick there you will have control of everywhere the hand goes.

    But of course every knife attack would be different, as would the environment of attack.

    Warm Salaams to all,
    KC
     
  20. Declan

    Declan Valued Member

    Ah.

    Grabbing the elbow is simply a means to an end. It would therefore be good to know what the end is.

    I know what I could do once I had him by the wrist. There are various options:
    • Throw him suddenly so that he goes down with a broken elbow
    • Keep the knife moving and stab him with it
    • Fold the arm back and press the edge of the knife against the neck

    I'm sure there are more.

    Regards,

    Declan
     

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