knees in western arts

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by robin101, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    Hello people

    I am huge fan of knee strikeing techniques, and have been looking into their use in multiple combat arts, from thai boxing to krav maga. They have become one of the poster children of the self defence arts because of their ease of use to the lower body and viciousness and the fact that they can be thrown from a very close range.

    My question to you guys is: What western arts involve the use of strikes with the knees and in what way. You guys have shown scans from rennaisance dueling manuels, woodcuts and tapestries so i am sure if they exist one of you guys will know.

    The only western use I am aware of is in Greek Pankration, their are stone bas releifs of pankrationists throwing the knee to the groin in matches.

    So anyone know of anything like this?
     
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We use everything in western arts. Knees, Headbutts and harsh language.

    The Bear.
     
  3. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

    This clips still makes me cry:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI"]Harnischfechten-Armoured Free Play - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

  5. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    thats an interesting vid, is it traditional i.e was that how medieval sword fighting was taught??

    And i was more thinking what particular styles utilised the knee?
     
  6. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Gripping the blade is legit. It's the only way to use a sword to kill a person in full plate armour. Striking a fully armoured opponent with a sword in standard grip is an invitation for him to more or less ignore the strike and cut you down.

    For examples of knee strikes, look here:

    http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Nicolaes_Petter

    More armoured combat with the half-sword grip:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4"]SwArta Harnischfechten - YouTube[/ame]

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  7. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    thanks
     
  8. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    hmm had a look at the link, was too a wrestling manuel. non of the illustrations showed knee strikes. Am i looking in the right part of the manuel?

    Thanks for the link though, interesting as hell, never knew there was sucha formalised western fighting form that old.
     
  9. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    do you have anymore links to manuels like this, thet are fascinating??
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

  11. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

    Quoted for hilarity. Poor innocent knee wronged by that cheating scoundrel, the face!
     
  12. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    It mentions knees in the fourth throat grip.

    Also, see Johann Georg Passchen's "Vollstandiges Ring-Buch", 1659.

    Paulus Hector Mair mentions knees to the groin too.

    Petter is comparitively "new" actually. The oldest German manual is from about 1300. It details sword and buckler fencing, and is extremely sophisticated.

    There is even a fragment from Greece on wrestling that is much older:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.Oxy._III_466

    The Western world was a hotbed of formalized fighting systems. It could not have been otherwise considering the amount of conflict the continent has seen.

    My own interest lies in the German systems from the mid 15th Century. The manuals deal with armed and unarmed combat, armoured and unarmoured, on horseback and on foot. You can't get much more comprehensive and systematic than that. :) I train mostly unarmoured longsword, dagger, and grappling.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  13. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    This is a fairly exhaustive list, complete with links to separate descriptive articles, which in turn often link to online (sometimes hi-res) scan of the original documents.

    http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Manuals#Manual_Index

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  14. Nojon

    Nojon Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein

    Out of curiosity, how many of these manuals have been made into books?
    Fascinating stuff.
     
  15. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Quite a few. Some are translated online free as well.

    Here are some of my faves:

    Royal Armouries MS I.33, trans. Jeffrey Forgeng
    Joachim Meyer, trans. Jeffrey Forgeng
    Ringeck, trans. Christian Tobler as "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship"
    Peter Von Danzig, trans Christian Tobler as "In Saint George's Name"
    Peter Falkner, trans Christian Tobler

    Also look here:

    http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/books.aspx
    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fiore-de-liberis-fior-di-battaglia/5364635

    And check out all of Kirk's titles as well.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  16. Nojon

    Nojon Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein

    Thanks for the info. Im the type that would rather have the book in hand, love books. Ive refused a free kindle a few times lol.

    ps- Kirk?
     
  17. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    He's responded in this thread (lklawson). He has a lulu.com store with lots and lots of old boxing and wrestling manuals. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  18. Nojon

    Nojon Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein

    oh ok lol. Im not as sharp as I used to be. Thanks.:)
     
  19. Rand86

    Rand86 likes to butt heads

    The plate from Passchen was in fact what I first thought of when I saw this thread but I couldn't, for the life of me, find it anywhere. Would you happen to remember which one it was?

    The second thing I thought of was actually boxing, and I don't mean the old-style stuff. :hat:

    Also, I know there are some savate folks wandering around these parts - would you guys mind sharing some info on knees there? I don't remember seeing them used on the sport side of things - but then again it's not only sport with you, is it?
     
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

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