Hello people I am huge fan of knee strikeing techniques, and have been looking into their use in multiple combat arts, from thai boxing to krav maga. They have become one of the poster children of the self defence arts because of their ease of use to the lower body and viciousness and the fact that they can be thrown from a very close range. My question to you guys is: What western arts involve the use of strikes with the knees and in what way. You guys have shown scans from rennaisance dueling manuels, woodcuts and tapestries so i am sure if they exist one of you guys will know. The only western use I am aware of is in Greek Pankration, their are stone bas releifs of pankrationists throwing the knee to the groin in matches. So anyone know of anything like this?
This clips still makes me cry: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnqOMbFDEAI"]Harnischfechten-Armoured Free Play - YouTube[/ame]
thats an interesting vid, is it traditional i.e was that how medieval sword fighting was taught?? And i was more thinking what particular styles utilised the knee?
Gripping the blade is legit. It's the only way to use a sword to kill a person in full plate armour. Striking a fully armoured opponent with a sword in standard grip is an invitation for him to more or less ignore the strike and cut you down. For examples of knee strikes, look here: http://www.wiktenauer.com/wiki/Nicolaes_Petter More armoured combat with the half-sword grip: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4k-vjdeZO4"]SwArta Harnischfechten - YouTube[/ame] Best regards, -Mark
hmm had a look at the link, was too a wrestling manuel. non of the illustrations showed knee strikes. Am i looking in the right part of the manuel? Thanks for the link though, interesting as hell, never knew there was sucha formalised western fighting form that old.
"The Science of Self Defense" by Bart J. Doran (1893 boxing manual) pp33 & pp40 Peace favor your sword, Kirk
It mentions knees in the fourth throat grip. Also, see Johann Georg Passchen's "Vollstandiges Ring-Buch", 1659. Paulus Hector Mair mentions knees to the groin too. Petter is comparitively "new" actually. The oldest German manual is from about 1300. It details sword and buckler fencing, and is extremely sophisticated. There is even a fragment from Greece on wrestling that is much older: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.Oxy._III_466 The Western world was a hotbed of formalized fighting systems. It could not have been otherwise considering the amount of conflict the continent has seen. My own interest lies in the German systems from the mid 15th Century. The manuals deal with armed and unarmed combat, armoured and unarmoured, on horseback and on foot. You can't get much more comprehensive and systematic than that. I train mostly unarmoured longsword, dagger, and grappling. Best regards, -Mark
This is a fairly exhaustive list, complete with links to separate descriptive articles, which in turn often link to online (sometimes hi-res) scan of the original documents. http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Manuals#Manual_Index Best regards, -Mark
Quite a few. Some are translated online free as well. Here are some of my faves: Royal Armouries MS I.33, trans. Jeffrey Forgeng Joachim Meyer, trans. Jeffrey Forgeng Ringeck, trans. Christian Tobler as "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship" Peter Von Danzig, trans Christian Tobler as "In Saint George's Name" Peter Falkner, trans Christian Tobler Also look here: http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/books.aspx http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fiore-de-liberis-fior-di-battaglia/5364635 And check out all of Kirk's titles as well. Best regards, -Mark
Thanks for the info. Im the type that would rather have the book in hand, love books. Ive refused a free kindle a few times lol. ps- Kirk?
He's responded in this thread (lklawson). He has a lulu.com store with lots and lots of old boxing and wrestling manuals. Best regards, -Mark
The plate from Passchen was in fact what I first thought of when I saw this thread but I couldn't, for the life of me, find it anywhere. Would you happen to remember which one it was? The second thing I thought of was actually boxing, and I don't mean the old-style stuff. :hat: Also, I know there are some savate folks wandering around these parts - would you guys mind sharing some info on knees there? I don't remember seeing them used on the sport side of things - but then again it's not only sport with you, is it?
Here: http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=143463&handle=li -you can see fiore doing the knee to groin-thingie :love: