Knee prob and tai Chi

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by incubus, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. incubus

    incubus Valued Member

    I have trained martial arts for various years and recently I started having probs with my right knee :bang:

    I have had cartilage operation in it but as most people it is not 100% as it used to be. However, it is much better and can still train Kung fu with certain moderation.

    I have started learning Tai Chi in the last few months , am learning the Chen style , 18 form and have felt some discomfort in my knee again during some of the moves, especially when it comes to the strikes with the fajing application .

    Does anyone has any problems with this?
     
  2. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    Just some things you might want to try. Never let the knee stray out of alignment with the toes - always move your whole leg from the hip joint down. During fajin it is massively important to ensure that your hip folds open and close to allow your torso to move without in any way taking the knee with it - remember the knee is a hinge and must never move sideways - shift weight on to the leg in a straight line (the line that runs through the heel and second toe).

    I'd recommend avoiding circling knee exercises too, and applying pressure with the inside of the knee in push hands (some Chen stylists practice this and I believe it is outlawed in push hands contests). To apply pressure with the leg, turn the toes in the direction you want to apply pressure first so you can shift the weight in a straight line.

    Keep the dang rounded (inner thighs etc.) and the foot arches raised - the feet should be like suction cups - relaxed and spread, but still with space under the foot arch.

    Ensure your weight is always falling through the middle of the foot - never through the knee cap into the ball of the foot or toes (or just through the heel, but letting your weight fall through your knee will cause you more problems).

    Finally, during stamps like in "Bronze Statue Pounds Mortar" do not fall on to the stamping foot - keep at least 60% on the supporting leg as you stamp. Generate the power by sinking on your supporting leg.

    Sorry if you already know all this, but I thought I'd better check. Maybe talk to your teacher too.

    Regards,
    Joanna :)
     
  3. Hapuka

    Hapuka Te Aho

    I dont do kung-fu but iv'e had similar problems in my left leg and it took months for it to recover. I didn't have go through any operations but it was still a pain in the bum. I had to wear a knee strap, but that still didn't stop me. It might help you to wear a knee strap while training, Apply joint cream and if you can see the doctor and see if you can get any pills or somthing for joint problems.
     
  4. SanDiegoTaiChi

    SanDiegoTaiChi New Member

    Knee problems are common in Tai Chi

    Incubus,

    Unfortunately your problem is not uncommon. There is a generally recognized medical problem called "Tai Chi knee" in the U.S.

    Basically as others have noted, it is caused by improper alignment and use of the knee joint. Many instructors do not insist on correcting structural problems early, so the repeated movements of the form actually serve to cause long-term damage.

    In my experience, Chen stylists have this problem more commonly, followed by Yang. I practice Wu style and there is a lot of emphasis on parallel feet (except in the horse stance of "single whip"). Since the step size and stances are not too long, knee articulation is lessened. One of the reasons for evolving from Yang "large frame" to Wu "medium frame" was to correct many of the potential problems with posture and joint strain. This allows 100 of the weight to be carried on the Yin leg (instead of the 70/30 distribution common in Yang style).

    The main injuctions in Wu style are for knee-toe directional alignment and not going forward past the toes during knee flexion. Wu style is probably the gentlest form to practice and is particularly well-suited for people with phyisical limitations. My master Henry Cheng has developed a shorter "Tai Chi for Arthritis" set for the U.S. based Arthritis Foundation.

    This is not to say that Chen and Yang will lead automatically to knee problems, just that there is a greater potential for this due to the higher loads placed on muscles and joints in some form movements (and especially sparring).
     
  5. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    This approach definitely gets my vote too, for the reasons quoted and it is more powerful. I'm a Zheng Manqing stylist chiefly (as well as doing some smaller frame Chen stuff), but I've incorporated a much more Wu style approach to footwork.
     
  6. wonk

    wonk Valued Member

    At times I find the effort to keep the kua and dang arched seems to lead to a slight strained feeling on the sides of both knee joints. Is that something that should just be accepted as a normal part of practice, or is it something I should try to mitigate now?
     
  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    my tuppence ha'penny...
    First, learn to separate the various parts of the body so you understand how they work correctly - hips are for rotation, knees and ankles should be straight lines - although we aim to use the whole body in Taiji, it is useful to emphasise more separated, almost mechanical, movement at an early stage so that you are conscious of what the body is doing as a whole later. I would also say to do lots of slow form-work before rushing into high-pressure push hands or sparring (remember the fable of the tortoise and the hare...!)
    I also recommend you learn to turn the waist while keeping the pelvis 'seated' in place. Practise that by doing waist turning motions sat straight in a chair with your feet firmly planted (correct horse stance training will help this also, but will be controversial with Taiji snobs lol :eek: :D ). Many Taiji people twist their pelvis without really realising they're doing it which causes misalignment in the knee and weakening of the knee structure.
    Most important factor other than obvious correct alignment ime is to make sure the lower back is correctly sunk and the waist correctly 'structured' - many taiji people fail at this and experience joint problems as a result. Basically if your knees twist when you turn and/or step, you're doing something wrong. A correctly sunk lower back also stops you over-extending through the front of the knee ime And despite being fictitious/mythical and apocryphal, Chang San Feng's classic says it best when it states: "All problems can be traced to the waist..." :D

    Centre, don't rush. I had rotten knees when I started and they are now better than they've ever been through correct practice, but you have to be really careful and train smarter, not harder... apply your will, not your force as YCF would say, but persevere!
    May I also recommend you investigate this guy's methods too:
    http://www.alexanderbase.fsnet.co.uk/
    I use his techniques daily on myself and for people in my classes and they are excellent for fixing misalignments of the pelvis, which is most likely the root of the problem imho. You should also regularly align the pelvis anyway if you're doing 'pressure'/impact MA practice as the pelvis goes out real easy without you realising it...
    Personally I'd avoid knee supports as they only cover the problem up rather than enabling you to fix it. Use the pain as a good indicator of what you'e doing right and wrong...
    :Angel:
     
  8. jkzorya

    jkzorya Moved on by request

    I'd fold the lead kua (direction you are turned to face) and round only the rear side of the dang. Thinking of shifting your weight forwards in the direction of your front toes, rather than sideways, can help to prevent front-knee bulging too.

    I consider the "rounding the dang" rule to be more of a simplistic thing because people tend to collapse the foot arches a lot when starting out. It is a bit like "tucking the tailbone" in that respect. Currently in the UK at least, people's tailbones are already too tucked under and my Chen style teacher actually pulled mine out - making my bum stick out a little bit and this enabled me to relax into a much lower stance - just sitting comfortably. I guess all these rules should read "find the correct place / alignment" - i.e. not too far in any direction.

    Another thing some people advise is to twist outwards with the heels as a counter to the rounded dang, but I find the combination makes the legs quite tense so I wouldn't advise it, personally.

    I'd definitely try to sort out your knees asap.
     
  9. sparrow

    sparrow Chirp!

    I was recently told that the muscles that prevent the knees from collapsing inward are actually at the top outside of the thighs. An interesting exercise to strengthen them is to sit (on chairs) opposite a partner. Put your knees between theirs and press your knees outward as they press inwards as hard as they can for ten seconds. Repeat three times. You will really feel it when you stop - so best to start gently!
     
  10. Sankaku-jime

    Sankaku-jime Banned Banned

    my advice would be if it hurts stop doing it now and speak to your instructor.
     
  11. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I’ve had a few problems with my knees over the past year and have noticed the following:

    I took some time of training, and basically did nothing for a few months, once I started training again my knees were a bit sore. The conclusion I drew from this is that sitting on your ass at work all day is not good for you. Now I sit on someone else’s ass.. I kid.. basically use it or loose it.

    If I find that if my knees are feeling a bit iffy it is usually because my foot is not in proper contact with the ground, i.e. the weight is distributed unevenly and as a result throws of the knee over the centre of the foot alignment. I find the main cause for this is over-engineered footwear. My conclusion is shoes suck, I try to do most of my training barefoot now.

    Sometimes there is nothing wrong with the knees at all and the problem actually originates in the lower back. If one does pelvic lifts and holds them for about 5-10 sec each one may notice that the back of the knees and the foot arches seem to get a really good workout from it, even though the exercise is for your pelvic region. I noticed that almost all knee symptoms are automatically corrected and the feet and knees align much more easier, also making it easier to correctly transfer weight through the back of the knee. This kinda brings me back to “sitting on your ass all day is not good for you”. Specifically cause when many people sit for prolonged amounts of time, including myself, the lower back is contorted and takes a lot of pressure from the weight of the body. Consequently many of the nerves and soft tissues that are directly connected to the knees and hips get distorted and may result in misalignments and pain.

    Doing some squats is also good for your knees, providing you don’t use your knees for the squats, i.e. keeping your knees locked in a almost vertical position, if need be you can hold on to something, has a similar effect to the pelvic lifts, strengthening the musculature which maintains the proper alignments.

    I’ve tried BKF’s method of twisting the legs in order to protect the knees, but it just made the soft tissue around my knees really tight and had more or less the opposite effect. I find that emphasising relaxed knees when standing helps a lot. What I mean by this is that when you stand you should align yourself (maintain the knee over centre of foot) in such a way so that if you took the muscles away, you would still be standing. In other words the kneecap should be as soft and relaxed as possible. Easier to get used to this with higher stances.

    In conclusion, quit work, don’t sit all day and don’t wear shoes. :D
     
  12. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    the key to sorting your knees is sorting your hips! ;)

    if you know how to use your hip joints your knees wont get hurt. pretty simple really. :D

    ;)

    cheers
    chris
     
  13. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Hey Chris, can you elaborate a bit on using the hip joint? Do you mean it in the sense of moving from with the hip/kwa area?
     

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