Killer Instinct and Aikido

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by tedi-kuma, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Something Rebel Wado posted inspired me to start this thread. How does killer instinct fit with Aikido?

    Do you have the mindset to "pull the trigger" or not?

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  2. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Well with regards to pulling the trigger or not? You must be willing to act when an opportunity presents it's self. But "killer instinct" is also about knowing which opportunities to take.

    Lions generally avoid tackling fully grown bull elephants. But they will readily gang up and take a calf. You have to know the targets you can exploit and the targets you can't. The difference is success or failure with no second chances.
     
  3. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Hi Aiki

    Good reply! I think you'd make a good general only pick a fight you can win. Sound strategy to me!

    How do you think killer instinct sits with your own Aikido?

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A few memories serve to remind me of what can happen in training or real world.

    I was grappling with a person twice my size (meaning twice my weight) and I was in a bad position but I managed to slip on a guillotine choke. After a few seconds this guy is making the most awful gurgling sound like he is dieing. I INSTINCTIVELY loosened the strangle, not much but it gave him enough room to escape the technique and soon after that tapped me out with some kind of key lock.

    I was fighting under amateur Muay Thai rules and my opponent was less than half my age, around 17 years old I think. I kicked him in the solar plexus and his face turned all white. He looked like a kid and I could not finish him off. I stunned him a few time more with hooks and such but I felt myself INSTINCTIVELY hold back.

    In both these cases my mind wanted to finish them, but my instinct did not allow me to... so instead I pulled punches and hesitated... lost opportunity. This really did a number on me, made me really question my training and why I was training.

    The fact I did not hurt them was not a problem, the problem was that I lost opportunity that I should have used to take action. It did not have to be the knockout punch or choke out, but could have been something else taking advantage of the opponent's stunned or unbalanced state. Simply put, I lacked killer instinct.

    How this all fits into Aikido training is the concept of "pressure". I was told a few times that the key to many techniques is to apply continuous forward pressure. The tricky part is that as we and opponent's move, the focal point of the pressure changes, it is a goal to perfect technique so that the transitions between these pressure changes is subtle as to not give the opponent opportunity to counter or attack (not to leave ourselves open).

    Killer instinct is like this pressure thing. Do not let up and when there is opening, you go for the throat and do not let up. Without this killer instinct, one is prone to be a "hesitator".

    I know there is a sword principle in Aikido not to hesitate.
     
  5. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Interesting post Rebel! You might be doing yourself an injustice there. You were in sporting situations with rule sets that might be ingrained in you with years of performing in this way but in a life or death situation you might behave totally differently from what you expect. It is the big question I think all martial arts tend to ask themselves "Do I have what it takes?"

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Aikido training among other things has helped me get away from a "sport mentality" but whether it is sport or not, the idea that I might do something instinctively that is outside my conscious control exists in all environments when taken out of our comfort zone.

    With some it is the worry to go too far, with others it is the worry to not do enough. Killer instinct is neither excessive force or ineffective force, it is the instinct of a predator.

    I think this can be trained in the dojo, but to tell you honestly, it is not a concern for me any longer... these lessons are learned mostly outside the dojo, IME. I've learned through life experience.

    Killer instinct exists in training, but at the level of applying pressure and exploiting openings without hesitation... I believe that the rest is better learned outside the dojo in real world including sport competition for many.
     
  8. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    I'm a bit dubious to whether you can train killer instinct, Rebel. I believe we all have it after all humans are predators. The only thing that has changed us is the large scale pacifying through modern civilisation that has taken away our need for killer instinct to survive. We are conditioned to conform and comply with society and it's rules.

    Personally, I don't do martial arts for developing killer instinct or anything like it because if it comes down to me or someone else then there is no choice in the matter I'll do what it takes for it not to be me. I've been in that frame of mind before I started training martial arts.

    Aikido training has frequent moments when you are in the here and now, this is why I train.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    IMHO, killer instinct, some people are born with it, others have to work that much harder to get it. It is a predator instinct like that of a tiger. Maybe you are one of the few that was born with it.

    I do not personally believe all have this inside of them to the point that they have faced it. I see many that have what I call a "coyote" mentality where they are strong only when in numbers. Many are also like sheep, only fighting when cornered and their life is threatened. But this is probably going on a tangent.

    Back to killer instinct, I have often reached a point in training or outside of training where I act instinctively (intuitively) to down an opponent, but to release them from harm is a conscious decision. As best as I can describe, this is how things are for me. My auto-pilot is to follow-through, it is my conscious decision to not hurt or to lessen the damage based on situation and intent.

    I prefer not to hurt. In order for me to deal with this, I had to take ownership of my own technique. There are points in my technique where I can sometimes make these decisions, assess the situation. The principles and training emphasized in Aikido has been of great help to me in this manner.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2007
  10. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    I would not argue with anything you've said there at all. I believe that you probably do have it but as long as you are in control you decide not to finish then all it does is show the gauge of a person you are. It speaks more for than against you!

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for the kind words.

    Maybe hard to understand my long posts... but it wasn't always so. There was a time when I thought I wanted to hurt people but my instinct prevented me from doing to. It did wonders to crush my ego when I realized I was not in control of my own actions.

    It has only been through years of training that I have reversed that. Now my instinct to finish it, but I make it my choice to do otherwise as I deem appropriate. In order to do this, I had to improve my martial arts, improve my technique so that I could retain control of the opponent and give myself the opportunity to make choices rather than just be like an animal and go off instinct.

    'nuff said from me about this... I'm probably as bad as a broken record.
     
  12. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Rebel, you have a healthy attitude to the whole thing and I'm sure your training just helps enforce who you are.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  13. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Isn't instinct, by its very definition, an inherent untrained thought or action? Thus it can't be taught.
     
  14. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Very true, but it can be developed. If someone doesn't have it, it cannot be created. I think only a very few have absolutely no killer instinct.

    The Bear.
     
  15. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    You are right! But I'm sure you have trained with guy's who appear to lack any real killer instinct in them they freeze when they have to fight. Sometimes Aikido gets bashed by other MA's as not being practical, so the question was aimed at whether folk thought it had any relevance to Aikido or not.

    Regards

    Teddy Bear

    ps. Are you still training with Charlie and the guys?
     
  16. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Everyone has the fight or flight instinct. Just in some, such as the small or the ginger, it comes out over a spilled pint. What I am trying to do, as a martial artist, is reprogram my instincts to something more useful.

    We all have basic instincts, flick your hand at anyones face and they close their eyes and move their heads back, flinch basically. What I want to do is also bring my foot up to kick them in the stones. That kinda thing.
     
  17. tedi-kuma

    tedi-kuma Valued Member

    Hi Brido

    How do you feel martial arts help you to re-condition your instincts?

    Are you having any sucess?


    Regards

    Teddy Bear
     
  18. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    Helps a lot. I find fighting is the best way to do it, which is a strange concept for martial arts. At first I have to think about the skill I want to develop, but after many repititions (in a sparring environment) it sticks to happen like 'instinct'. Standup, clinch and ground is all the same. If people try to throw me there is something things my body just does without me thinking about it to stop it. I don't find excerices that follow a pattern help at all in this, they do nothing beyond helping you understand the technique.
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    As already stated, it can be trained. I believe in Aikido writings it is referred to as "seated instinct" meaning, I believe, that the instinct can be trained though experience and exposure (repetition in the right context). Others refer to such training as "hardwiring" the brain. Others refer to it as "Intuition."

    There may be those that disagree with me, but I believe the majority of combat arts is in training seated instinct. The reason is that the mind must be free (not attached to anything) to be aware and apply conscious thought while the body acts. In order for the body to act, conscious thought is too slow in close combat situations, it must be instinct.

    Experience and exposure in a PRESSURIZED environment is needed to test out and develop seated instinct. For instance, there is an instinct in cats to apply the "killing blow" to prey. This instinct actually has to first be taught by the parent cat. Once the cat is exposed to applying the killing blow, the instinct takes over. Until then, the instinct is not developed and the cat will play with food and not know how to apply the killing blow.
     
  20. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I would argue then it is a trained skill and not an instinct. No more instinctive than me eating with a knife and fork. However, we are arguing symantics here. Whether it is instinct or not, the killing blow is administered. Does Akido train you in having a killer instinct? From what I understand of Akido I would say yes. It teaches you not only to spot openings but to take them. By reading Koyo's posts here it is obvious he trains a 'killer instinct'.
     

Share This Page