Kihon usefulness?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by JHughes, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Tsk Tsk jwt! ;-)

    You should never allow yourself to forget about kumite when practicing kata.

    Otherswise your Kata will become "igata" (dead), Kata should always be performed as alive!?
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Why would you say it's not Gyaku Tsuki? That would be akin to saying that a zenkutsu dachi with the knee relaxed and a zenkutsu dachi with the knee locked tight are two different stances.

    I think the crucial thing that makes people raise the heel is discovering what happens if you hit with the other hand first. If you actually make contact with the forward hand, you won't reach the new position of the target (which will have moved back from the impact of the first strike) if you keep your heel on the ground, whereas raising the heel will give you greater extension and enable you to make a second contact.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I never forget about bunkai and oyo when doing Kata. Kumite is an entirely different kettle of fish - different ranges, different attacks, different situations.:rolleyes: I see no need for kumite if a person knows a Kata and trains its bunkai.
  4. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I do, cause I am a Wado-ka and do not train in Bunkai! Shock Horror there is a style of Karate that does not utilse the process of bunkai!
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I wonder if you've enjoyed, as I have sir, that marvellous painting in the National Portrait Gallery, "Bag Interior", by the colourblind hedgehog workshop of Sienna...

    ...if you're not doing the bunkai then there's no real point to doing the Kata. You may as well just train Kihon and kumite.

    Or you could get out of the bag, see the light, and learn some bunkai.
  6. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Maybe, unless you understand how wado works?
  7. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Do You?
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'd be interested to know how your system of wado works.
  9. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I dont pretend to understand how shotokan works (thats your job apparently) so how do you know how wado Works? :)
  10. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Not my system of Wado, so you would have to ask some one in authority.

    I am but a student :)
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm not looking at this from the perspective of styles or associations but from the perspective of the different things that karate is and can be. Traditionally Wado developed from cross training and a fair amount of the things that had been deliberately removed from Shotokan (in parallel with the reverse movement of things from Judo) were thus revitalised. Wado has Kata, those Kata were the core of its fighting system. While there has been a movement away from the teaching of bunkai across a large range of Karate styles, the heart of the style is still there in its Kata and its bunkai.

    My question to you was whether you personally do not train bunkai or just your club/association?
  12. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    That's a difficult one to answer. Mainly because you have just stated the bulk standard answer that most people would quote about wado being a blend of Shotokan and Japanese Jujutsu.

    In the Words of Otsuka sensei; Okinawan Karate is to Wado is a pinch of salt is to a stew.

    The "cannon" as it were of Okinawan Karate is Bunkai, however you have to look at the the Koryu arts of Japanese Jujutsu to understand how Wado works, and the relationship of the Wado Karate Kata within this.

    Traditionally (although unfortunately a lot is lost today) most Wado schools would teach several layers of paired Kata (throw back from the Jujutsu (waza) days).

    The Yakusoku Kumite would typically consist of:

    Iponne Kumite
    Oyho Kumite
    Kihon Kumite
    Kumite Gata
    Idori no Kata
    Tanto-dori no kata
    Shinken Tach-dori no kata

    Etc Etc the list goes on.

    These together with Kata (and Kaisetsu) are I supose our Bunkai or at least our stepping stones towards the understanding of Jiyu Kumite.
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I was trying to keep it simple given the time. :)

    This does beg the question Gary - which Kata are you practicing when you think of kumite? Those of Japanese origin or those of Okinawan origin, or both?

    Otsuka's metaphor is an interesting one because his background meant that he should have already have been able to see and understand the majority of the Karate bunkai - hence the pinch of salt, that bit of refinement that makes the stew as it were.

    What I want to know is whether in your association you explore the bunkai of the Okinawan Kata or simply expect students to be able to interpret them based on what they have learnt elsewhere in the syllabus.
  14. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I will try to keep it short also:

    1. Neither I am thinking of Wado Kata and How to move correctly

    2. I doubt it. Otsuka was already a Master Jujutsu-ka, I think he probably looked at kata as a way to transmit technique, form and movement, not application.

    3. No, as I said we do not study okinawan Katas, and we derive our ability to extract application from our various paired kata.

    If you speak to any of the Major Wado groups based here in the UK or for that matter around the world, you will get the same answer.
  15. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    Ok, I'm going to be the black sheep of the Wado family here. Does our club practice Bunkai? Nope (as John here could probably tell from how inept I was at the recent meet).

    Is my training lacking as a result of this? I think so.

    Now the "Wado" I practice is a lot more watered down than that which Gary does (as far as I can tell) so for advice and information on the style you would be wise to listen to him over me.

    That said, I am of the opinion that Kata without bunkai is nothing but pretty to look at, this hasn't stopped me practicing solo kata, since it is something I enjoy but I will not pretend that I am learning them to their full potential - even with aids such as Ohyu-Gumite and Kihon Kumite etc and again, I don't really see a link between Kata in the style and Kumite, the techniques are there but in general they are a different animal.

    It could be argued that this opinion is due to my limited understanding of the complete style, which is something you won't hear me disagree with. However I would rather take effectiveness over tradition any day, not saying Wado isn't an effective system, I wouldn't still be practicing it fourteen years later if I thought that, yet the Kata in Wado as I understand it, are not being used to their full potential.

    I'm thinking this could be a new thread....
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2008
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Sorry for the late reply.

    JWT, you bring up great points as usual. The reason I think of the heel up and heel down variations of Gyaku tsuki as two separate techniques is because we practice American boxing along with karate. We call one the boxing version and the other the karate version.

    You are completely right that bending the knee gives you mobility and more range on your punch. This is the way I prefer.

    Okay, what is the practical difference? The "karate punch" is closer range and is the same body mechanics as striking with both hands at the same time. The "boxing punch" is the mechanics of striking with one hand at a time.

    The range was the key. I was taught that the "karate punch" was designed to be thrown with less "telegraphing" because there is not as much shoulder rotation to give away the technique when close in.

    This is what I was taught and I don't claim that it is the only way or even that it is the standard, just what I was taught.
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Thanks for your answer. Other than discussing Kata and training with Wadoka, training with Wadoka at seminars etc my main experience in the style has been occasional lessons and seminars in the distant past with Wado Ryu Instructor Derek Ridgway, thus my only experience of a Wado Instructor per se has been of one who was very interested in the application of the Okinawan kata in the Wado syllabus. From what you say, it seems that as with Shotokan, this is more the exception than the norm.
  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Please don’t get me wrong. Like any other style, Wado seeks to utilise the Karate that is found within Kata, its just we unlock it in a different way.

    To me anyway, Wado is all about nurturing “instinctive” Karate. Learning how to react to any given situation automatically, with the most appropriate response. (as of course is the goal of all good systems).

    As far as I can see, Wado does this by using Kihon to give you the tools as it were (kicking punching, blocking etc.) with good form, and Kata as a study of technique with movement and how to apply the principles inherent to them (taisabaki) etc

    Paired Kata gives you a variety of examples of how specific techniques (waza?) can be applied to kumite as well as teaching you the stratagems of fighting – distance, timing, anticipation, entering etc,etc.

    The above parts of the Wado system do not work autonomously from one and other; it is the sum of the parts that make it what it is.

    As far as I can see the end result is the same, it just a different approach to getting there, not better or worse, just different.

    @ Sam :),

    Your response is refreshingly honest.

    I have never trained with you or your group, so I don’t know what your Wado is like, but equally I would not berate yourself too much either, chances are if you have been doing it for 14 years then I guess it is working for you.

    As far as getting the most out of your kata; as long as you are moving correctly and performing the techniques well, then it is doing its job from a Wado perspective. A Juntsuki in Pinan Nidan is a Juntsuki - nothing more nothing less, but it must be performed with intent.

    So your Wado katas (paired and solo) are probably working for you, even if you do not fully realise it :)
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    We've already had 2 threads split off from this one. :mad: Don't be greedy. :hat:
  20. Sam

    Sam Absent-ish member

    Intent to do what though? Whats it following up from? Why is it there? Whats coming next? If its nothing more or less than a Juntsuki in thin air then whats the point? You might as well just do some basic Juntsuki's across the hall. You are drilling the same thing in two different ways.

    I've long thought (and this is really not a slight at you Gary or anyone else here) that the "Wado does not practice Kata as a style" statement is nothing more than an excuse to get out of why we don't study Bunkai, at least in later years. Yes the style does not "traditionally" practice Bunkai, but then times move on.

    Don't blame me if I like the seeing Karate forum active, I might not post much but I do like to read ;)

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