Kihon usefulness?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by JHughes, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    why do you think this?
  2. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Well, doing a full extension on the gyaku tsuki and driving your hip through whilst your back foot is planted on the floor means that you are violently twisting the knee joint on your back leg at the exact point of delivering the full power of the punch.
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Where do you point your back foot in zenkutsudachi?
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    As Mark asks - where are you putting your back foot?

    I've noticed that lots of karateka get into the bad habit of not working their calf flexibility with the result that their back foot can be aligned as much as 90 degrees to their front foot when in front stance. Gaining flexibility jere does not take a long time,nor does it take specialised stretches - you literally just have to but your feet parallel and lean against a wall and hold. What you should aim for is the flexibility whereby your back foot is parallel to your front foot.
    this means that:
    1. Your musculature is aligned so there is minimal risk of injury.
    2. You can engage the leg, hip, torso and shoulder fully.
    3. You are positioned to move forward.

    You wouldn't see a sprinter with a rear foot out to the side would you?

    The depth of your stance should be dependent on this. If you can't do it, you need to do one of either two things - raise your stance or bend your knee
  5. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    My back foot points far forwards as it will go (of course!:)); I aim for parallel, but it might be a few degrees off.
    If it's at an angle, then your back foot is not anchored to the ground correctly and your ankle becomes the weak point. If it's straight out at 90 degrees (or even worse pointing backwards) then you are (a) not driving your power forwards, (b) putting a sideways force into your ankle and using it as a spring to absorb the power, and (c) making it mechanically impossible to drive the hip through.
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    hmmmm.... curious, i've never had a problem with my knees doing gyaku tsukis, never heard of anyone who had, until now, and the form you describe is the same way i do it, following the same line of reasoning i use... there's always the chance that you're hyperextending your knee joint a bit, and that's what's causing you pain.
  7. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Well, I have got a very sensitive knee, as I've had three ops on it!
    (TBH, I've stopped doing serious training now, as the next time it will be a replacement knee.)
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    oh, in that case i'd agree, any training with strain on the knees would aggravate that. have you considered training with shorter stances, or with a leg brace?
  9. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Well, I think the technique didn't help the knee...:confused:
    My surgeon advised me that a knee brace wouldn't help because it won't prevent the twisting.
  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Change systems. Give me a pm or call.
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Any reason for the inverted commas? :thinking:
  12. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    If you were in my area, I'd already be training with you!:)
  13. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i'd recommend traditional ****o-ryu or goju-ryu if there are any good dojos near you, as both systems use shorter stances. if you can get to a meibukan goju-ryu dojo, all the better.
  14. JHughes

    JHughes New Member

    going back to line work in zenkutsu dachi gyaku zuki would always have the back heel planted on the floor we just draw our hips up and drag that foot up to show that we are still executing with power.
    in a fighting stance situation where we would on our feet moving around we bring our heel up and twist our hips. ones to show strength, technique and power, the other is too show fluidity, relaxation and speed. but either one can be used in a fighting situation.
  15. Anari

    Anari Valued Member

    No sir.... absolutely no reason other than putting your handle in "quotes".
  16. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    Molten hot "Mag-Ma"
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Check your PMs Mr Prowla:)

  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I think this has crossed over to the Gyaku-Tsuki thread topic as well.

    As far as I understand it, Kihon basics / line work (call it what you want) serves one purpose, and that is to engender correct form. Form to me does not just mean shape, and nice looking karate (to make your sensei proud), it means to understand how.

    Kata is simply a method to learn how to apply the principles of movement to Kihon, and Kumite is where both are realised.

    Gyaku-tsuki in basics is (typically) performed with the heel on the floor. (nothing to do with looking nice) mainly due to learning the correct weight distribution.

    Through kata we learn Kaisetsu, and then through paired kata we can start to apply the techniques into Kumite.

    My point is that Kihon, Kata and Kumite are all stages. Neither will give you instant answers / solutions and they shouldn't be looked at this way.
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Try not to confuse kihon with line work - which (despite the title) is what this thread is about.

    I'd also not include kumite in the same paragraph as Kata. Kumite is a paired form of linework based Karate. Bunkai is the paired form of Kata based karate.

    I've seen a large number of Karateka whose understanding of Karate, and Kata in particular, has been fundamentally distorted (and damaged) by linework and the adaptation of karate technique to paired matches.
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Nice post GaryWado.

    kihon is basic movement that can map to many techniques. The specific applications are learned through experience with a training partner.

    What we sort of have here in this discussion is not about the usefulness of kihon, but why are there differences between kihon. Some punch Gyaku tsuki with back heel up, some with it down (to put things in over simplified terms).

    What I would point out is that with heel up is actually not Gyaku tsuki but a variation of technique more like a boxer's punch. Is it that that strange for me to think that more people are punching like a boxer these days than the Gyaku tsuki taught fifty years ago? Gyaku tsuki is like two strikes in one... but enough of that broken record (as I've said that too many times already). It is power through the forward hip like how a vertical elbow to the chest drives through the target.

    Anyway, IMHO, people have found that punching more like a boxer works better for them in sparring and other situations... I don't see anything wrong with this. I just would say this is not the same technique as Gyaku tsuki... maybe it should be called the "new Gyaku tsuki."

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