Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by ShadowHunter, Apr 24, 2005.
Didn't think you were Spooky. Nothing wrong with asking for clarification.
I am on a roll, may be a sausage one but i am on a roll!!
So how do you feel the Kihon applies to the more advanced Taijutsu student i.e. at the other end of the training scale.
while i agree the kihon happo is a good for beginners, it does, in no way stop there, at the seminar at the weekend all we did on the saturday is look at the principles, change them, change the footwork add a couple of weapons etc and the day could easily have turned into a week, the training was endless just from kihon happo, from senior teachers who train with Hatsumi the transmission of the kihon is amazing and i would definately say there is far more to it than a beginners tool.
Could you not say that of everything we do, the Bujinkan allows the freedom to discover what this really is and does not have to be shown in a controlled fashion, isnt every technique we do a training tool to better our movement?
Well for a start take the kukan, that would surely make KH advanced!!
I think the point Bouk is making is that it is a point to start for new students.
As you progress then you see a whole new aspect of KHK, especially when you start putting weapons in to the mix. KHK as you progress in training becomes a key as does Sanshin, which opens a door to fluidity of movement and a miriad of powerful technique both armed and unarmed.
I agree Greg to spend time on KHK and play with the differnt aspects could take a week if not longer! We continually return to KHK and have all levels practice it.
What is the Kihon Happo No Kata? One answer would be a collection of eight techniques packaged together in a kata. We know there is more to it than that but it is still a valid answer. Another answer may be the Kihon Happo o Kata is a collection of eight techniques with emphasis put on movement for openings etc... Another answer may be the Kihon Happo No Kata is pre-determined movment void of any technqiue. A final answer may be the Kihon Happo No Kata simply doesn't exist at all.
How you answer depends on your experience and position on the technique/movement journey described above. There is something for everyone.
What I think Greg is describing is experienced instructors demonstrating the use of timing/distance/balance in different contexts but relating the movement back to everyone's point of reference. My view is that this is an excellent method of demonstarting ideas and movement as everyone will get something from it. So in a sense, it is a teaching tool.
Yes and well described. I think you are talking about an ideal though. That doesn't explain why Hatsumi created the Kihon Happo. He clearly thought there was a need to teach in this way.
But I do agree, this is what we are trying to achieve in our training.
Just discovered this, thought it may be of interest. Taken from:
The Kihon Happo
by Masaaki Hatsumi
I have trained myself and instructed others in Kihon Happo (basic eight rules) and felt that those who have had previous training in Karate, Judo, Aikido, Kung Fu, and other fighting techniques tend to stay with those forms and have trouble learning Budo Taijutsu from a "blank slate." The fighting forms stay with the student even though he starts the training of Budo Taijutsu. When do the previous learned techniques disappear? I think it is up to a person's individual talent. The phenomenon is just like a dialect disappearing after one lives in a different part of the country.
No matter how hard one tries, he will never be a professional announcer if he speaks in dialect. The same can be said for Budo. I also studied various martial arts such as Judo, Karate, Aikido, old-style Budo, and Chinese Budo. In other words until I encountered Takamatsu Sensei, I was a Budoka (martial artist) with many dialects. One day I began to wonder why and when did I lose those "dialects?" I realized that it was after I lost all my muscle tone after five years of illness.
Discovery of your own dialect is one way of improving Budo. When one reaches a certain degree of skill, he comes up against the "wall," something he has trouble overcoming. This is the so-called dialect of Taijutsu (body technique).
I want to write about how to train yourself when you reach a higher rank during Budo training. I would like to use a Cat Competition as an example. I have had lots of experience in the competition because my wife served as judge of the World Cat Club and I was also vice chairman of the club.
Suppose five top cats are chosen out of hundreds of cats. All of them are wonderful and beautiful, but that alone cannot be judged. With no other way to judge which cat is more beautiful then another, the judges start to look for faults. The one with the most faults drops to fifth, the next, fourth, then third, and so on. The one with the least faults becomes Grand Champion.
Bugei is the same way. If one reaches to a higher rank, he need only eliminate his faults. It may sound easy, but eliminating faults is very difficult to accomplish, because we tend to think we are faultless. Faults can be translated into something different in Budo. They can be suki (unguarded points), or carelessness, presumption, arrogance, etc. - they all become our fault. No fault, zero condition is the best. I am ZERO. I joke that the Soke (Grandmaster) has no Dan. Zero, no fault - that is the target of Bufu Ikkan (living through the martial winds)
i'm curious, did hatsumi create kihon happo as means to assist others grasping the essence of the art? or was it something he learnt from takamatsu?
also, is the kata used by the Genbukan and Jinekan or is it purely a Bujinkan tool?
For myself, I can see the value in kihon happo, for beginers and more experienced practioners. It gives a clear indication of some fundamental principles and provides a valuable spring-board for more advanced technique.
However, I would not say it is the be-all and end-all of training (hence my jovial re-buttal of snakes earlier enthusiastic post).
Perhaps I'm missing something and with a few more years under my belt I'll see it differenly?
My understanding, so far, is this:
Sanshin and Kihon are at the core of our Taijutsu; Through these you learn how to move in an appropriate manner and how correct body structure allows you to generate power, also you take the first steps in manipulating your opponents balance not only through correct movement but also striking. All of this comes together via controlling good old distance timing and balance.
Everything else i.e. Hoken Juroppo (sp?), Mutodori then adds to and builds upon the lessons/principles within Sanshin and Kihon.
So in a way everything is Sanshin and Kihon Happo and all training is in Sanshin and Kihon Happo.
Like I said this is my understanding so far, I’m sure it will change with more experience.
i get what you are saying, and I agree up to a point.
I guess my problem with it is that it is still kata. Although it may be an effective way of transmitting the priciples and ideas associated with the art, although it acts as a spring-board for greater understanding and more developed technique it is still kata and it is still something we must 'learn'.
Surely at some level, this is in contradiction with the general philosphy that we are working to 'unlearn', to remove set ideas and preconceptions about what is or is not possible? If a student is not clear on how the Kihon Happo can be used as a tool and mistakenly believes that they should be focusing on mastering the Kihon Happo and then filling their mind with countless henka then they could well miss the whole message of the art.
Instead of seeing henka as a natural phenomena which arises from the differences inherent in each unique moment of life, they will see the Kihon Happo as a blueprint from which they must work to create countless options so that when the next attack comes they have set of derived responses at their disposal to counter any situation.
In reality, (IMHO) the essence of the art is to just be ready and this readiness comes NOT from having a database of technique from which to choose, but instead having the awareness and the taijutsu to create appropriate responses as required, unique to the moment and situation.
Ok I'll put this to you I spent the weekend at a seminar based around Kihon Happo but there were no techniques and we did loads of stuff but there weren't any techniques.
When I refer to the Kihon when I'm training I don't do it as "oh right its x technique" I think "ah it's that feeling"
As for a student filling thier mind well I would imagine with proper guidence from their Shidoshi it shouldn't happen someone once said to me:
"You are thinking too much. Soke says Don't think, DO" Tell you what those words are priceless and have helped me no end.
You look at Kihon as a tool and that's it, as a Kata, a set-form and that’s it!, for me this is not the case it is so much more; from it you gain an appreciation of distance timing balance and rhythm.
Do it with a Bo and it changes yet stays the same, do it with a Kunai and yep it's different but it’s the same, put a knife in your hand and guess what……. The different "techniques" that appear to be being done are only another way of expressing the feeling behind it. By practicing it you “unlearn” your bad ways of moving and fall into a more relaxed natural way and for me, so far, that seems to be Taijutsu!!!!!
You are right eventually we should have the awareness and Taijutsu to be able to create the appropriate response, we develop that ability through Sanshin and Kihon Happo. We unlearn our bad habits and through training develop natural movement.
Ok I’m done can someone who knows what they are talking about please step in????
you seem to be doing just fine
This is where things differ in my mind, i see kata as a clearly defined set of movement parameters i see kihon happo, the 8 basic training tools as kata yes, but then thats it, to truly understand and "Unlearn" kihon happo you must understand the principles.
Another way to look at the Kihon Happo and Sanshin is as the ingredients in a recipe. You learn certain things about certain foods (steak should never be boiled, but eggs can be) and certain rules for cooking (overheat the oil and it burns everything in your pain, under heat it and everything is oily and soggy). Now, we've learned how to cook, can boil water and not burn the toast, do we all make the same exact thing for breakfast? Given a dozen eggs and a rasher of bacon, will I cook it the same way as Greg? Probably not. I may have an omelete, while he has his sunny side up. No salt for me, but pepper, and he puts salt and pepper on. We started off with the same ingredients, but fixed it up depending on our tastes. The KH and S are like that. We learn them, learn how to use them and season to our own taste. The kihon are not the end all be but they are the ingredients to creating your own culinary masterpiece.
Hey, I've been up 24 hours and miss my wife's cooking. Cut me some slack.
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