lol im not the expert when it comes to kickboxing and Muay Thai just like i told u started recently..but says on the gym kick boxing!!
Kickboxing is essentially full contact karate - certainly that was the genesis of it IMO What better excuse to post some classic footage? Dennis Alexio [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufouF02NyRk&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufouF02NyRk&feature=related[/ame] Joel "Zab's Dad" Judah showing some slick moves! [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areuoTC_IQE&playnext=1&list=PLBA76A769AF79589E&feature=results_video"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areuoTC_IQE&playnext=1&list=PLBA76A769AF79589E&feature=results_video[/ame]
Full contact Karate is certainly how it started, but it is quite a different beast nowadays, though I find it more depends on the actual club. You generally won't see Katas, and other such stuff. The training is more Boxing/Muay Thai oriented via pad work, bag work, cardio, sparring, etc. Kickboxing has taken alot from Muay Thai aswell in reference to kicking styles although there is more versatility in what kicks are used. If I was to describe it simply, I would call it boxing with kicks allowed (Kickboxing, heh). I think it represents more of a boxing style than a karate style nowadays.
American and Japanese Kickboxing's kicks come from Karate as far as I know of. But to answer the OP, I think if a Kyokushin Karate guy were to fight an equally experienced Kickboxing guy, the fight would be anyone's guess. Kyokushin guys are tough, and have made a HUGE footprint in kickboxing arenas world wide. The same is true for Kickboxing (although this is an umbrella term). So pick one and train!!
What style of Karate is this? I studied Chung Do Kwan Taekwon-do for the majority of my life. CDK is a VERY old school style of TKD and has a lot of homology with Shotokan Karate. We went over a lot of drills with elbows and hooks and even knees. I've seen Shotokan, Goju, Kyokushin, and even Wado guys do pretty much the same drills and techniques. And man you made me comment on a 9 year old thread
Not all of them. For example, our roundhouses are pretty much the same as the Thai style roundhouses (especially when low kicks are legal). Same as our front kicks. Both of which you'll find are the most commonly used kicks. It's only really the more flashy stuff, like spinning hook kicks, crescent kicks, spinningback kicks, etc that comes from Karate, etc. American Kickboxing and Kickboxing in general, while derived from Full Contact Karate, took alot of influence from Muay Thai also.
Even kyoksuhin has some muay thai influencs in it. namely the round house kick. =) Seriously though. martial arts isn't like A cell phone. you we can't just say that KickBox is better than all Karate cuz it has more RAM =P The human factor is way too big. and since the populartiy of MMA and Fulcontact fighitng, a large number of Traditional martial artists have started training full contact, with resistance drills and competitons. so the line grows ever more obscure. =) AS for the kickboxers being more fit and stuff, doesnt that depend on them being professional or not? because i'm pretty sure that a lot of people who take kickboxing as a hobby.
Not really. There's quite alot of cardiovascular training even at amatuer level. Granted if someone was serious about Karate and full contact they would probably work on getting into a fit shape, but in Kickboxing you do fitness and conditioning from pretty much day one. I'll give you an example of a standard session for me, at Yellow belt (which is third grade in Kickboxing). I've been training in Western Kickboxing now for roughly just under 4 months. An hour sessions is generally broken down into 3 minute rounds with a 30 second break between rounds via a timed bell. When the bell goes for our three minutes we generally work our techniques and combos on bags, pads, humans via sparring. In the 30 seonds between we don't generally rest (if we do it's once every four rounds or so to take on a bit of water), we are doing push ups, squat thrusts, situps, skipping, and knee raises on the spot (overall, not all within 30 seconds). I think a beginner Karate practioner wouldn't really focus on any fitness quite to this degree. I know from when I did some Shotokan (though this was a significant amount of time ago, alot may have changed since then) that wasn't really the case. It was more drills up and down the hall, and holding stances, learning katas etc. I have the impression that with modern Karate even if there is some fitness exercises involved I do not feel it is quite to the same extent that we may work on it (and if there is it seems to me more like it would be done in someones own time rather than in gym time, or at a more advanced level rather than from beginning). What you should remember is that one major reason Kickboxing was developed was because Karate practitioners were finding their fitness was appaling when fighting in full contact sports and naturally it's training is geared more towards developing the fitness to supplement martial combat at a full contact level for them. Now I cannot speak for any style of Karate that is more focused on full contact, I do not practice it (though I would happily like to hear just what Karate practitioners do for fitness during a session nowadays). I am just giving my own view from my personal experience within the art of Kickboxing.
I suppose you're right that it would depend on the style of karate. i have been doing kyokushin for almost two years and my first 3-5 months of training were only cardiovascular training with basic techniques. basically our class lasts around 2 1/2 to 3 hours and about half of it is completely geared towards cardio. we do pehaps half an hour of technical training followed by final 15 minutes of Pad/Bag/shadow boxing with 3 minute rounds and 1 minute break in between, or we do non stop kumite for 5 to 6, 1 minute rounds. thats when the class is over, but the teachers advocate students to stay and work on their syllabus besides that even our club is open 6 days a week and we are prompted to come do self training on non class days and use the gym, which is free for regular members.
Yep your most likely correct. I think though that this is due to MMA and UFC which brought light onto the awesomeness that is MT. But a lot of literature from the early 90's and before, when UFC and similar event were getting a footing in popularity, mostly cites Karate as the origins of it's kicks. But realistically, a roundhouse is a roundhouse xD. I think MT helped with the speed of the supporting leg (if that makes sense), which IMO is very MT.
It's not just the speed of the supporting leg, but the snap derived from the shoulder turn and thrust from the hip also. Getting the leg back into position is just as important a delivering a fast kick. So kind of all three really. The way we train is very Muay Thai esque anyway and my instructor has been teaching for 20+ years.. And I disagree that UFC has anything to do with it. Certainly MMA and K1 but Kickboxing has been utilising Muay Thai kicks for a pretty long time if I'm quite honest (going by what I've learnt about it from training, on the internet and various discussions, though I am not a historian on the matter). If there is any concluding evidence that proves otherwise I'll stand corrected and learn something new, but I don't believe UFC has any influence on Kickboxing today.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHVTxwP-IdA"]ベニー・ユã‚*ーデ Benny Urquidez　試åˆæ˜*åƒ By Japan - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkhE4IqV_Hs&list=FLNpr9AeXo4TXnsQD6v4x9kQ&index=1&feature=plpp_video"]Don "Dragon" Wilson vs Samart Prasamit - YouTube[/ame] Not sure why people say Benny only lost to Muay Thai fighters when i've seen plenty of videos of him beating people with shorts/doing low kicks. The first fight in the video is against a Muay Thai fighter anyway. Don Wilson-good kickboxer but why does he always look hunched over more to one side (see his highlights)? Don't like how he had to milk the Bloodfist series though. What's the difference between freestyle pointfighting and karate? I know the latters' scoring is much stricter and better levels of contact? Don't mean to open up a can of worms but when Master Betty was on here he always said pointfighting with its side kicks and backfists is worthless and even light continuos is a bit lame. Pointfighting in the form of freestyle does seem to breed bad habits such as sticking hands down yet people who support it show me two examples: Raymond Daniels/WCL- former sticks his hands down all the time and the latter is exciting but overrated (no clinch or sweeps/MANDATORY aggression). Daniels got destroyed in MMA too. Michael Page-fights in UCMMA but that's had scandals of match fixing and it's fighters are low level Only because I got kicked out of my old club and did judo/wrestling/jiu jitsu for a year have I now considered doing real karate like the WUKO days of Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Coreley,Benny Urquidez,etc. Was Betty right all along r.e. non K-1 being worthless? EDIT: I also want to do wrestling as I enjoy it (even though it's super hard), how do you combine wrestling and karate? I know GSP and Liddell have but afaik they're not point karateka like Machida. I did better at pointfighting when I did kickboxing so I want to do legit pointfighting like in karate.
If that's what you want to do, and you'll enjoy it, why does it matter what MB said? You'd combined karate and wrestling by doing both. Machida's background is in traditional karate - point fighting is a factor in that, but there can be a lot of contact in trad karate, especially in Brazil. The only thing you'd have to change is your training methods. It doesn't take a massive jump to turn Shotokan in to a full contact endeavour for example.
Trying to be careful not to break forum ettiquette here BUT: whenever I trained in light continuos/semi contact people say 'keep your hands down to score points' or 'that doesn't work in continuos'. I fought my friend from Hong Kong who did point karate and due to his poor understanding of English, when I said we should fight points, I hit him and got the point but he went straight to continuos; a similar thing happened with my Bulgarian friend who is strictly boxing/kickboxing- I began to think that MB must have been right since I personally don't know how to kill 2 birds with one stone. Plus all the people I know who do light continuos/semi contact go around quoting Michael Page,Raymond Daniels and WCL as proof these guys can fight yet Daniels got destroyed in MMA, Page is fighting at low level MMA and Pele Reid was destroyed in K-1 and that was combining BOXING with light continuos kickboxing background. Even Tony Sykes says 'fecal matter' happens when it comes to bad habits in pointfighting. I've began to think people who do Muay Thai/K-1 are right that it may be a waste of time-your viewpoint on today's devolved pointfighting? Here's a club I know that does points,light continuos,full contact Western kickboxing and MMA- fighters that do the latter 2 rarely if ever do points and hardly do light continuos. http://www.fighting-falcons.co.uk/Fighting_Falcons/Hall_of_Fame.html Is there a reason WHY freestyle pointfighting has become so rubbish to the extent they do 'tricks' competitions? Why did karate/freestyle rules split/change?
10 years experience in Karate, 5 years in Kickboxing. They both have their strengths. If you are in a fight and you HAVE distance on your side, Karate will win hands down. However, if you are very close to each other, karate's blocking/moving in and out tactics just do not work, at all. Learning both has pretty much made me twice as confident in sparring.
