In this thread I brought up this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcAfClb-f4g"]National Geographic Fight Science: Stealth Fighter - The Kick Test (feat. Capoeira) - YouTube[/ame] JWT questioned it, but as it was Off Topic here is a dedicated thread to discuss the video. JWT suggested that bio mechanically the front kick should have been the strongest kick. Biomechanics isn't my strong point, but napkin physics off the top of my head suggests that a round kick would give more moments and torque to produce more power. Spinning back Kicks (when they land) tend to be devastating as well - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqW-69C_9W8"]SPINNING BACK KICK OF HELL - YouTube[/ame] possibly because they combine the Bio Mechanics of the Front Kick (I assume this means the bunching and spap extension of the muscles?) with the spin to add some torque? Thoughts?
My only thought is what I would rather break up firewood with: any linear kick that impacts with the heel. Not all linear kicks are equal though, as even though the foot moves in a straight line, this is achieved by rotational movement in the joints. The pivot of the knee does not direct energy in an efficient manner without the hip pushing through in unison.
So are you asking: - which is stronger front, roundhouse, or back kick? - what is the strongest kick? Either way though, I tend to find spinning back kicks to be the most devastating. For me though I'm rarely ever able to actually land the "back-kick" variety, but the "pin-wheel" variety, as my club calls it, is a specialty of mine. If all we're talking about is power alone (leaving out practicality) then I'd imagine that some type of jumping-spinning-back-kick would be the meanest. But honestly they're about as useful as a ham sandwhich in a gun fight.
I think it comes down to leg power. while the front kick power does come from a hip rotation, there is not a lot of moments in that rotation, thus not much torque, but the power created from the quads extending the leg will add to that. a round kick uses a lot longer moments (the longer the leg the better for this) and a back kick is between the two, the power of the quads extending out and a middle ground of moments . ..
I'm asking for an interesting discussion ;op I think the same experiment done with just one martial artist doing different kicks would be interesting. I'm not sure a jumping spinning back kick would win, as you'd lose the pushing factor on the grounded foot perhaps? While I did do a few years of TKD it was mostly tippy tappy TKD, very few of our kicks were taught as powerful kicks =/
Not only that, but the application may also be different. For example the MT push kick vs. the TKD front-snap kick. The kicks may not deliver the same type of blow upon impact, but they are used for different situations and may have secondary effects; like if someone hits that floor/wall after taking a push kick. All I'm saying is that there are variables to consider
GSP says some naughty words, but here might be something to consider [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3N5Rnx37O0[/ame]
There is also the difference between striking with the heel or ball of the foot. When striking with the ball of the foot, energy is dissipated to support the structure of the foot. There is also the hardness of the striking surface, and the resistance it offers to the target.
Fair enough. I'd take 20 MAists and do this experiment, just to have better statistics. Having spent near 10 years practicing various kicks, I know that I'm horrible at certain kicks, yet great at others, this'd give a lot of "technical errors" Well when you jump you'd be pushing off the ground to the point that you get airbourne. So my assumption would be that more force is being generated. Not to mention you'll be covering more distance allowing for more "penetration" through the target, yet again loaning to more force. Of course having not actually tested any of this, your guess is as good as mine. TBH, as a TKD guy, I have to admit that WTF, and to a degree, ITF aren't really loaded with power kicks. I quicker direct you to MT or Kyokushin Karate if you want to look at power kicks.
I was a bit surprised that the TKD guy was more powerful than the MT guy in the original video. Very valid point about having lots of people doing all the kicks. better averages etc, better results. I'd "argue" that in being in mid air when you make contact some of the force will push you back, where as if you're grounded the grounded leg would hold and all the force would go through the kick... but possibly if the airborne kick had more power in it to make up for that (if my point is even a valid one...lol)
Indeed true. But two more variables. - Shoes: depending on the strength of the sole and tip, the warping effect may be reduced. - The awkwardness of kicking linearly with the heel: At least for me, this is a personal weakness. One thing that happens a lot with me, is that when retracting the leg after the kick, the hip joint locks, of course not very ideal in a combat situation.
Yeah, I was thinking shoes as well as feet when I mentioned striking surfaces. World of difference between a barefoot kick with the toes and one wearing steel toe caps. But we haven't really considered resistance yet; stomping someone against concrete will do more damage anything.
Yeh stricks me as odd too. But I think the difference is that the TKD guy had his shoulders pointing away from the bag, and so he turned a full "180 degrees" where-as the MT guy only turned "90". That, and the TKD was a lot of faster than anyone else in that group, loaning again to more power. I understand what you mean. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. That being granted, most jump kicks involve only a very small jump that's over in a flash. Some kicks require that you land before making contact others make contact whilst still airbourne. The former type of kick is usually done to overcome the friction of the ground and the twisting on the joints, both of which can reduce torque.
I think, as Lad_Gorg said, it depends on the kicker. I'm fairly sure my straight kicks are stronger, but that could well be how I've trained my kicks.
The original video shows a terrible way to measure kicks. The bag they were kicking shouldn't be knocked around so much, because it kills the momentum of a kick with a strong follow through. That's why I thought the MT and the Karate guy didn't score so hot. The TKD guy kicked the bag so fast that he was able to follow through before the bag flew away. And the Capoeira guy got the perfect angle on the bag. The force of his kick kinda went diagonally down, so the bag couldn't get away from his follow through therefore absorbing all of the force. The test would have been much better if they had a 400 pound bag to kick. Also after watching the MT guy's kick, it wasn't just the bag. His kick was crappy.
I'm a bit surprised noone has mentioned the side kick. It is linear, uses the heel and recruits the glutes, hips and quads in various parts of its motions. Plus, subjectively, it always feels harder through the pads (relative to other kicks), regardless of the person doing it.
To me there's different kinds of power in kicks. Some have moving power, some snappy "shock" power. A side kick might feel good through a pad and move someone bodily but is tricky to get a KO with because it doesn't have the same shock power as a roundhouse. If I was going to kick a door in I'd use a stamping front kick or maybe a spinning back kick. Dunno if that makes them more "powerful" for fighting though?
I'm not sure about the jumping part either. A back kick is very strong, but it would seem to me that by jumping (and it's usually a jump straight up when you see MMA guys do this, not a jump towards the opponent; not sure which other arts use this variation on ushiro geri) you haven't got yourself braced against an un-moving surface (the floor), so the only force being transferred is a push with your kicking leg, not a push with your whole body.
Well a back kick is pretty much a sidekick with more torque (ok it's a bit more different, but chill). I personally have issues with sidekicks. I like them a lot, and they're one of the kicks that I've practiced the most at home, yet I can pretty much never pull them off in a sparring situation. Whether it be with the back or the front leg, there are just too many steps to take and before I can get the kick out. Not that I'm slow, it's just most opponents see it coming from a mile away and dodge or parry. I prefer a modified hook kick since it's rarely used and people mistake it for a linear sidekick, but then end up with a heel in their chest.
I was including them in my "linear kicks with the heel" bit. I can get most power with them at knee height. Stomping with the heel to the floor is good. If you can synchronize dropping your body weight behind it.
