~~~> KI <~~~ Your Internal "Energy", or lack thereof...

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Ki_Power, Nov 10, 2010.

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Do you believe in "KI"?

  1. Yes, I believe in KI

    29 vote(s)
    44.6%
  2. No, I think it's all a bunch of rubbish!

    24 vote(s)
    36.9%
  3. Sorta yes, Sorta no...still on the fence!

    12 vote(s)
    18.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Ki_Power

    Ki_Power Banned Banned

    Taken from Wikipedia:

    Ki is frequently translated as "energy flow". Ki is often compared to Western notions of energeia or élan vital (vitalism), as well as the yogic notion of prana, meaning vital life or energy, and pranayama, meaning control of breath or energy. The literal translation of "Ki" is air, breath, or gas. Compare this to the original meaning of the Latin word "spiritus", meaning breathing; or the Koine Greek "πνεῦμα", meaning air, breath, or spirit; and the Sanskrit term "prana", meaning breath.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Taken from the mind of me...

    Ki = what?

    -Spirit
    -Energy
    -Life
    -Power
    -Force
    -Force (as in the Jedi)
    -Control
    -Focus
    -Concentration
    -Strength

    ...and on and on we go...

    Bottom line, there is an energy within us all...and you may call it what you want. But, one can focus, breath, concentrate, develop, initiate, call upon, direct and re-focus that energy in power. It may be the power to say "no" to something bad, or the power to stand up for yourself. It may be the power to teach or the power to learn. It might be the power to run faster and longer, when your body says STOP! Regardless, it IS power.

    Power perceived is power achieved.

    Through training, meditation, conditioning and focus...one can deliver power through the transfer of energy within oneself to another object or person. The result is the desired thought. Maybe a broken board, maybe a broken bone, maybe a broken heart. The delivery is the method and the method is delivery...where your mind is at the time the delivery is made will greatly affect and/or effect the outcome of said delivery.

    Do you believe?

    I do...but I'm also a bit crazy too...and I like to jump off cliffs and out of perfectly good airplanes. I like to get lots of tattoos and I believe we are all capable of incredible things! Some, more than others.

    Through the years and during my time in Martial Arts, I have developed a level of Ki...and my Ki changes from day to day.

    One PHYSICAL way to check the power brought to ones hands (like preparing to break something)...is to bring your hands together in a prayer position without touching - about 1-inch apart. Then move your hands like an accordion. You WILL feel a small level of resistance (and it's not air). It is similar to trying to place to magnets together - they will oppose each other. Your level of Ki development - as it increases will be evident in this test.

    The rest is what you believe.


    Discussion is now open...
     
  2. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    Dude, that's just your midichlorians.
     
  3. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    what is it called when you use a word for something that has been scientifically explained as a bunch of different things happening again? really, human beings set ourselves back when we consciously promote being cognitive misers on subjects that are better explained thoroughly... like ki.

    didn't the character/hanja for qi change over time? from doctor yang's explanation in his "understanding qi" series, the chinese used to use the characters for "without" + "fire" and now use "energy" + "rice". either way, the east asian cultures have been perpetuating it's lack of definability(is that even a word).

    even in chinese there are various terms that involve the character for qi that when combined mean something else... so the ancients kindof shot themselves in the foot, unless they purposely added the character to so many unexplainable things to explain the unexplainable.
     
  4. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I choose to call it chemical potential energy, which transfers on occasion into kinetic energy. Of course there is also some movement of ionic chemicals, but that's still nothing special as such.

    Nooo...that's just the application of energy, i.e. the ability to do work inherent in potential energy. Of course the delivery is the method - how else would you deliver force to a target?

    Not in the slightest.

    That's, uh, not really crazy. Why does us all being capable of incredible things require mystical energy and nonsense philosophy?

    How do you know? Can you measure it? How?

    What? There's nothing physical about this test at all! I could say just as easily that in the same situation I feel no strange resistance (which is true) because I'm not expecting to. There is nothing to demonstrate that this effect is anything other than psychological. If you were to actually measure the force being applied, and determine that for the same movement against your supposed 'resistance' you have to apply a greater force, then I might be interested. This however is not a test.

    Other than for motivational reasons belief does not affect reality. It only affects you.
     
  5. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Religion, or superstition, or mysticism. Take your pick really.
     
  6. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

  7. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Good, except for the question at the end trying to justify why ki is so hard to explain and so misunderstood.

    Energy is the ability to do work, or in other words energy is the ability to produce a physical effect.

    Not really hard to define, is it?
     
  8. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    Depends what you're trying to sell I suppose lol
     
  9. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    The "etymological" definition he gives of Ki at that URL is somewhat acceptable. Primarily, that explanation is based on a general definition of one of the radicals as rice. If you trace the etymology of that radical further back, it is actually a depiction of the 4 grains of ancient china that are separated by the thrashing. I realize I'm being technical, but that is the whole point of etymology. The character depicts the two external constituent parts which combine in the formation of post-natal vital-energy.
     
  10. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    where the option for " I beleive in ki, but its not mystical or what the dude describes it as" ? I think when they meant ki they meant ways of breathing to optimise performance and body mechanics, nothing mystical, or supernatural, just working the best way you can. I beleive in that.
     
  11. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    In Chinese doesn't ki (ch'i) translate to "breath"? (among other things)
     
  12. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    You know that such a test tells you pretty much nothing. In fact, the thing you describe can be simulated to a much greater degree in people with zero training and no concept of Ki, provided you use a specifically developed method for this. In fact, there is a whole martial art which uses this feeling to develop the body and movement to a certain quality.

    This feeling can also be increased and developed throughout the body by using certain imagery coupled with awareness. The martial art I am referring to is called “Yi Quan”, in this style, the feeling of resistance/attraction is related to controlling stabilizer muscles which are not normally under typical conscious control. If you are interested, check out this site, specifically the article section: http://www.yiquan.org.uk/

    In any case, the isolated feeling of resistance/attraction in your hands does not tell you anything other than you feel something that you are not used to, but its not unusual that such a feeling may illicit some positive psychological response in a person. If you want this “feeling” to have a significant impact on your movement, it must be developed to a much greater range (in your whole body) and be controlled at will (no concentration/imagery). We have a member on MAP (Dacheng) who is a seasoned practitioner of this art and from a very reputable branch, I’m sure he can address this much better than me and you could also check out some of his vids in the ‘internal martial arts’ section, here on MAP.
     
  13. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Ki = Energy, look at it as an engine, before you start the motor it is absent of ki, as you turn the ignition you add spark (electricity) (nerves), you then give it fuel (gasoline) (food), you then it takes in air (oxygen). Now you have life, to develop ki you need to make your engine work efficiently to maximize your horsepower. The human body is remarkable when it it comes to efficiency it will defend itself when being stressed. So if you want to build ki power (not you Liam) but power in a certain aspect of your training then you only need to train that part to build up to it. However overall energy (ki) is closely related to blood circulation and oxygen so you also should be practicing some sort of meditation (breathing).

    For example if you train say Iron Palm you continuously strike some sort of media and your body will strengthen your hand and build density the bone.

    Do I believe in ki as a mystical energy, no its a real energy.
     
  14. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    This is why I didn't check the "Yes, I believe in KI" option. I'm definitely not on the fence, but it's generic interpretations like Ki_Power gave (which are perfectly acceptable, but do cloud the issue) which makes people so skeptical.

    FWIW, here's an anecdote which happened to me and why I don't doubt the existence of KI as it's usually espoused in MA circles. Before I knew anything about acupuncture, I had always chalked up KI as either an asian form of prayer (due to the meditation aspect of the breathing exercises) or a means of combining special breathing techniques to aid in concentration (this is how it's usually broached WRT martial arts - FWIW, certain breathing techniques do make it possible for weightlifters to increase their maximum). But I became a firm believer in KI when I was hit with a palm-strike during a demo, and I felt a tickling sensation run in two distinct directions (down both of my arms and into my middle fingers - and up into my head forking in the throat and terminating by "crawling" over each eyeball to the crease of the eyelid). Since no discussion of KI had taken place, I was not subject to any hocus-pocus, mumbo-jumbo, subconscious suggestion. I was only vaguely aware that my instructor was even involved with KI training/enhancement. Once the sensation reached my eyes, my legs buckled and I lost consciousness for a fraction of a second (I regained consciousness as my butt hit the ground and could do nothing to stop my head from being the next thing to make impact, even though being fully cognizant of my surroundings). BTW, the fingertips of my middle fingers*tingled* for several
    days afterwards, slowly dissipating to an *itchy* feeling before vanishing altogether.

    Later scrutiny proved to be the tracking downward of the pericardium meridian (the sensation I felt go down into my fingertips) and upward (or reverse) of the heart meridian (the sensation that moved up behind my eyes). The fact that I felt this sensation along what is obviously a predetermined pathway or pathways, along with the fact that it wasn't any sort of hallucination or imaginary spectre on my part, is why I believe in KI power.

    But whatever it was that I felt, classifying it as "energy" is definitely the way to go. :cool:




    Agreed. ;)
     
  15. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    I'm curious. Where exactly was the strike? It sounds like you may have suffered a heart stutter or strike to a nerve cluster rather than anything requiring any meridians or 'ki' energy.
     
  16. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    I was struck on the sternum. But it was a very light tap and a "heart stutter" wouldn't explain the sensation in my middle fingers, now would it?
     
  17. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    No, but a strike to a nerve cluster would, or compression/shock to sets of nerves caused by the impact. Also since you say that you passed out for a moment and fell, there would have been other impacts which may explain more.

    I'm just wondering why, if you knew nothing about ki or acupuncture at the time, this was the first explanation you turned to rather than looking for other possibilities which could easily explain the same phenomena. I'm not disputing the effect, or your experience, just the idea that some mystical transfer of energy is the cause.
     
  18. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    I always assumed ki was just adrenaline. Think about it. The "dantien" where it supposedly flows from is about where your adrenal glands are (loosely). If you were a 16th century Asian peasant you'd be forgiven for assuming an adrenaline rush was your ki in action.
     
  19. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    here is a link that explains the etymology of the term "qi" as understood by dr. yang:
    http://ymaa.com/articles/basic-concepts-qi-and-qigong
    [​IMG]

    as for his explanation/definition of what ki is, dr. yang leans toward bioelectricity.

    "...The Qi in our bodies is actually bioelectricity, and our bodies are a living electromagnetic field. Thus, the Qi is affected by our thoughts, feelings, activities, the food we eat, the quality of the air we breathe, our lifestyles, the natural energy that surrounds us, and also the unnatural energy which modern science inflicts upon us, such as radiation from cell phones and many other frequencies.

    The following scientific formula represents the major biochemical reaction in our body:

    glucose + 6 O2 ---------> 6 CO2 + 6 H2O

    ∆G0'= - 686 Kcal (energy content)

    ----> Heat
    Light
    Bioelectricity (Qi)

    As you can see, rice is glucose, oxygen is air, and bioelectricity is Qi..."

    I personally think the idea of organs being able to be affected by positive and negative energy, but I do not think it is that simple. Too much goes unexplained. There are plenty of times I was healed quicker through an accupuncture session with master yang (soon tae), but is that because of everything that is going on in accupuncture, or 66% placebo from the relaxing environment, and positive attitude I leave with versus 33% nerve cluster stimulation?
     
  20. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Sounds plausible to me, though I always assumed the dantien was just to do with the centre of gravity of the human body.

    Our bodies are not a living electromagnetic field. The bioelectricity passed through our bodies is in fact chemical in nature, in the form of ionic salts passed through nerve synapses. These are minimally affected by electromagnetic fields, if at all, although the movement of these chemicals does cause us to possess our own (tiny) magnetic field.

    Glucose has nothing to do with bioelectricity. The ions which pass between synapses are constructed from salt rather than sugar. Sugar breaks down to produce ATP, which causes muscular contraction through purely chemical means, triggered by nerve impulses but not caused by such.

    There is also a huge amount of information missing from the respiration formula above. A lot of processes go on between the intake of oxygen and sugar and the output of CO2 and water.

    Bioelectricity is ionic, and nothing to do with glucose or oxygen.

    Placebo studies have taken place which demonstrate you gain no greater benefit from acupuncture by a master, and acupuncture by a random person off the street who you have been informed is a master.

    This isn't to say that there is no effect to acupuncture, just that the effect isn't due to placement of needles. Sadly among people who are actually aware of this and do not believe in such practices as acupuncture, they are of no benefit at all. Ignorance, in this case, is indeed bliss.
     

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