extreme evolution jkd, notingthe word evolution and then putting extreme before it, going to the farthest edges of the martial arts evolutionary tree, means that it has been taken to another level. If that is the case, what level has it attained that all other JKD groups have not, and in the case of what you stated("and even in your opinion if keysi is simply jkd then so what !") this means that it is still JKD and therefore is as all JKD students state a progression of themselves and not necessarilly the systen, the system is but a method of growth.
Also how can you simplyfy something that has already been simplyfied. To state that it is an extreme evolution of JKD states that is is something more or something better than JKD, if so, in what way and if so, it is not JKD then is it. If you cant take critisism then you should not make such bold claims, my expeariance in JKD stretches back many years and I have yet to come across a simplyfied and more extreme, evolutionary version of JKD which by it's own nature is simplyfied, evolutionary and extreme. regards Pat
I would like to add that sometimes things evolve to the point where they have no relevance or place in it's surrounding environment and become extinct. What I particularly disagree with in this "system" is the systematic stealing from other styles, then pushing these priciples as "evolution", when all it is is outright plagiarism and unethical practices. This is particularly evident when the techniques don't flow between themselves as they have been taken from different disciplines with very different principles.
depends what systems you are talking about, look at Shotokan,Funokoshi clearly practiced more than one way of Okinawan Te before coming up with his system, then you have the various forms of karate branching off from that system. it is the same with Kung fu/Gung Fu. most systems of fighting have been stolen at some point or should i say aspects of that art. in many respects if any martial art has kept it's roots then is it not thai boxing, but then how many arts have been influenced by thai boxing.
I am talking specifically about the systems from which Keysi has taken, and peddled it as "evolution" when queried where that aspect of the art originated, rather than credit the true and original source. I am not saying that mixing is a bad thing, if done properly, but talking about this example. The Karate example you give relates to different branches organicly growing, but from a common set of precepts. This is not the case. I think that if a particular system takes from another, they should acknowledge this, when queried for the source. This shows a level of respect between martial artists and human beings.
TRUTH as to something evolving to the point of uselessness and saying keysi does not credit the original source i have mentioned jkd a million times i think you should read before you write. Pat i have not made any bold claims the comment you seem most offended by is the extreme evolution jkd comment which i said Keysi is known as not that its better than i will try and explain this concept to you . Pat you must understand that iam merely telling you of my experience keysi has given me a better understanding of bruce lees jkd than affiliated jkd schools were there was a bigger emphasis on the Filipino arts. I am not bringing down jkd i think its a fantastic art but i feel keysi is much more suited to me and i feel it has moved on from the jkd i was learning this does not mean what you are studying or teaching is not better than what i was learning i am expressing my own opinion based on my own experiences, I think the cult comments i are undue dont you? I dont think jkd and keysi people should be fighting i think they should respect each other and why are you guys so threatened by Keysi if it is just "well marketed jkd" then surely this would mean we are studying the same art so why is it weird pat?? It is hypocritical of you to say that "that my friend is jkd" and then say its weird and overcomplicated! If you are realistic you will see that jkd has went from what bruce taught 30 odd years ago and incorporated a heavy Filipino arts influence and pretty much stayed that way.Keysi on the other hand has taken what bruce and Guru Inosanto taught and then moved in an entirely different direction based on Justos experience and his experimentation ,so does this mean its jkd maybe so but not the jkd you are all learning and teaching its totally different . If Keysi was called jkd you not would say what the hell is this i this is not jkd so is it not wise to say that this is a different art and not the same as jkd that is getting taught today and if its called extreme evolution jkd then its simply saying it has moved it an extremely different direction compared to other schools of jkd and has evolved to become keysi. Also at keysi no one person is more important that anyone else there is no elitism at all every one is treated as an equal and the instructors do not have them self's on a pedestal like most instructors.There is no guru or sifu Just George, Mandy ,Will etc... I hope this clarifies a few things for you. Davie
Kfm_Davie, I am not going to get into a tit-for-tat fight here, but I don't think you know what goes on at the higher ranks of your Keisy organisation, as you would know exactly what I mean. Keysi has taken from more arts than just JKD. The fact that you don't know this, as it hasn't been passed down to the students only re-enforces my comment about the original sources not being credited. So a lot of the "evolution" is just "assimilation". I am sorry if this isn't what you like to hear, but this is an open forum and I am entitled to express my opinions. I suggest you dwelve deeper into your system and ask questions as to where the principles, techniques etc... come from, and don't be content with a simple "JKD and Justo's own evolution of the system", because this is just not the case. Good luck in your training. Truth
Kfm Davie, If it works for you then I am pleased you have found something you like and find effective. I too have evolved in a different Direction, I moved to Trad FMA because of JKD. Because I felt I no longer benafited personally from JKD. But to say JKD is is taught the same way in all the JKD schools only shows your lake of knowledge with regards to JKD I'm affraid. JKD can and often does change from instructor to instructor. Yes true many do have an enphasise on the FMA, but just as many don't. JKD is a personal thing and is translated by each instructor on an individual basis. When I say it sounds weird and cultish, I have read most of the articles with regards to Keysi in Martial Arts Illustrated, you know the ones were the student tells you how they discovered Keysi and how wonderfull it is. It may well be wonderfull for you and many others and this can only be a good thing, but every month in MAI you read the same article by a different person who is saying exactley the same thing. This makes you wonder whether it is the same person wirting the same article each month under a different name, or that you have all been fed the same story to write in MAI which in it's self is a form of brain washing. It would be nice to read an article on Keysi by someone who did not seem to be reading from a set script, and gave their own opinion on the pro's and con's of Keysi. If this happend on a regular basis, you would probably find that more and more people would accept the Keysi system. And be honest, tell people it is after all JKD not an evolution of JKD, that tells many JKD students and instructors alike that somehow Justo has improved Bruce Lee's own thinking. Not a claim that can be made lightly I'm afraid. Be honest to yourself and if it works for you then enjoy your training. regards Pat
some of you guys may be interested in reading this artilce by marc macyoung, he address some of the ideas that some of you have put forward in regards to brainwashing and cults in the martial arts. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm after reading this it made me realise that one of the organisations (a so called off-shoot/progression of JKD) I was training with was just bleeding me dry for my money and constantly promised that there was going to be newer and more innovative ways of fighting down the line, if I first paid certain "fee". What a load of b*****ks!!! To make it worse they actually started doing so called NLP (neuro-linguistic progamming) that seemed way too cult-like for me and before you knew it had a bunch of paranoid people going around trying to initiate fights. In my experience, Keysi seems to me to be a more complicated method of jkd. From what I experience, it does not hold much validity for a real street encounter. Much of the drills that I had done in Keysi was very "dead" (i.e. against a willing opponent with little or no energy); the strikes and stances (emphasising a low stance, WTF?) were really impractical, most of the punches/strikes would probably result in one being injured because of the nature that certain strikes were thrown. Don't get me started on their stick work, because this particular instructor took us through an hour of hand exchanges with a stick...what happend to practical drills??? Now as I said im my previous post, being in the thinking man stance whilst holding a stick is down right ridiculous! Any self resprecting eskrimador will tell you the same.
Maybe you just can't see the 'Extreme Evolution' of the stickfighting because you are not evolved enough!
Hey I like that term, can I use it Please. I'll go up against any 'Extreme Evolution' Stickfighter anyday and use Traditional FMA. Come on, Now we have read the last but one post Keysi is sounding and looking more and more like a cult is it not. I just wonder what Justo's motives are. I met him breifly back in 1992 at Bob Breens Academy (I used to teach at Bob's Workshops) and was a little dubious about his motives then, I wont go into details but when I travelled to Spain in 94 and 95 I heard some things about him that convinced me that I was right in assuming he had ulterior motives. Regards Pat
Can you tell me more on his ulterior motives as iam genuinely interested. If you cant give me specific details can you at least give me an idea because i am finding this whole cult buisness a bit childish unless you can give me evidence giving me reason to worry. I feel i have been torn apart on this forum unduly all i was doing was trying to get chatting to like minded people about martial arts starting by answering someone's queries on Keysi i cannot believe the response i have had being that iam not an arrogant pig headed person i thought martial artists such as your self Pat would be more accepting than what i have seen on this forum but you have not discouraged me in the slightest and i am not angered by what you have said but iam shocked that you might have taken the goodness out of someone's training by slandering there art as soon as they join a forum it doesn't matter if some on is studying wing chung or Karate or savate or even Keysi whatever the art as long as they enjoy it then thats all that matters surely. Davie
From an earlier port of mine. As I said before, if it works for you then I am pleased for you, that does not mean I should not have my own veiws on the subject now does it. Please don't assume I am angry or against Keysi as a whole, as a matter of fact I lose no sleep over it at all, but if my veiws offend you then I do appologies but that will i am affraid not change my veiws. I have always beleived in speaking my mind as many will know, and if people do not like what I have to say then that's ok by me too. But I speak what I feel is the truth in accordance to my mind and there are I am sure times when I am wrong, and if anyone shows me that I am wrong then I will accept their veiws and change mind, but until then I have to go with what I feel is right in my opinion. regards Pat
tel kesyi is justo own system using jkd concpts and most of his material is from jkd and fma,if you do kesyi then u should find out wot works for u and not listen to how great it is,but this should be done in all arts in any case,i have one question for pat o malley,with all respect when u wrote on the other jkd forum bout "Commercialization jkd,were does bob breen,rick young fit into this,cheers
I'm new here. So what is Keysi Fighting Methods? And do you have a link that I could check out? Thanx.
tel hi me again.lol.its develeped from a guy from spain and a guyfrom uk,putting jkd and kali in streetfighting,bit like dog brothers stick part anyway,its quite good stuff tho
Hey you could try looking up the KFM website which is www.keysikfm.com and its basically a form of street fighting combining various styles of MA
yeah sorry about forgetting to mention that but you could try www.keysi-uk.com as well i think you might find some images or info about kfm there
