Kenpo Seminar a Success!!

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KenpoDavid, Oct 17, 2005.

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  1. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Our seminar with Professor Ron Chapel was mind-blowing! My style is not American Kenpo, but we have already started the process of examining how we do our techniques to find where to build in these structural enhancements. I think we might have to work a bit harder at that than you guys who already do AK (will we continue to do C-steps?), since your techniques came from Mr. Parker and so did the SL4 material and so it should really sortof be close already, yes? But I think we will have a good time looking for them anyway.

    On Day 2 Doc taught us the SL4 "Stance Set" their first and most basic form, which teaches the transitions between stances and changing directions and much more I am sure... He did authorize us to make available to participants a copy of the video we recorded on Day 2 so that you can have it as a reference for practicing that set. After 1.5 hours of that my legs were jelly.

    On Day 1 Doc taught us some principles of body mechanics - upper and lower platforms, associated and disassociated movement, muscle reassignment, "shields up/shields down", indexing and muscle recruitment, "everything matters", startle reflex and the visual cortex. I had a guy who was well over 200 lbs ("candygram for Mongo!!") trying to pull down my upward block, or to push me out of my bow stance and he could not do it. I wasn't even exerting myself, relaxed, "unbendable arm". If it wasn't my own arm doing it I would not have believed it. But it was, so I do.

    On friday before the seminar Doc visited our schools, and spent some time with our Founder Prof. Christopher Geary. For me this was one of the most interesting parts of the entire weekend, as Doc analyzed some of our techniques, offering suggestions and analyses on the techniques' origin and efficacy ("oh yeah that one is all Nick Cerio. He loved that kind of stuff... but it's junk, try it like this...") Watching the interaction between Professors Geary and Chapel was like an injection of martial arts information directly into the center of my brain... so much information to digest...

    I can say without a doubt Doc Chapel is one of the nicest people I have ever met, a gentleman and a scholar, and an excellent teacher. Yes we paid him to come but the personal sacrifices he made & challenges he faced to get here and teach us are a testament to the size and quality of his character. He's a big guy but his heart is even bigger We all really enjoyed the stories about Mr Parker, Bruce Lee, Mitose and Chow, Samoan picnics, Hawaiian "second breakfast", and all the other Kenpo and Martial arts legends you've known over the last few decades. You've got to find a way to preserve that stuff for future generations, the material in your head and under your bed! You sould treat those films and memorabilia like criminal evidence, take care of it, preserve it, track it. Please?

    And don't let me forget Ryan "Bob" Angell! Ryan, you showed every bit as much class as Mr. Chapel and it was a pleasure to have you out as well. Having you there really helped to multiply the amount of detailed instruction we were all able to get individually as you worked with us. And how did you eat a double cheesburger and large tots at midnight (on the way home from the chinese restaurant!!)... ??? You guys are nuts!

    Thanks to everyone who came out (let me apologize in advance if I forget anyone, I am working from memory here):
    Mr Walter Justice of Ta-Dow! Kenpo and his very sweet wife whose name I have no idea how to spell "E.C." is that close? I look forward to seeing you both again; Duke Whittaker, a pleasure to meet you finally face to face, sir Tad and Ray from Creston, Iowa; Dave Mondo from Des Moines Tiger And Dragon Kenpo; Thomas Howard and the crew from the Nebraska Hapkido Federation; Gary Boaz from Professional Martial Arts in Topeka, Ks; and all the students from our schools in Omaha. It would have been less of a success without each and every one of you!

    I don't know what else to say except - Doc Chapel delivered! Everything you read about SL-4, as crazy as it might sound, as hard as it might be to hear... try it and you will be a believer. Drink the Kool-aid. It's yummy! You kenpo people who live down there near him and don't at least go see for yourself are making a big mistake. Don't be an ostrich. Don't let politics, history, and bad blood that has nothing to do with you and your Kenpo prevent you from being your best. What he has to say about what you've been taught might be hard to hear, it might challenge your ego... but approach it with an open mind and no ego and you might just change your (kenpo) life. What do you have to lose? If I am wrong, if SL-4 is not what it claims... what have you lost? A few hours and a few dollars. But if it's true - if SL-4 is all it claims to be... well then what you have lost is the blinders from your eyes. But I warn you, you cannot put the genie back on the bottle. You may not be able to go back where you were.

    Mr Kevin Mills and Mr. Rose - It is clear that Prof. Chapel thinks the world of you guys and is proud to have you as his representatives. I was digging SL-4 before the seminar, now I am thoroughly hooked! Doc was absolutely correct when he told me "I GUARANTEE that what I will teach you will improve what you do no matter what style you practice."

    If you do any stand-up striking art that is NOT sport oriented, you really should look up a SL-4 teacher and get a taste of it. They say the secrets of Kung Fu were lost in time? They are not.

  2. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

  3. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    'One man's trash is another man's treasure'

    Isn't it nice for a senior to call another senior's technique(s) 'junk' at an open seminar especially when the senior being attacked is deceased. It would have never been said to Mr. Cerio's face and besides, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Perhaps, Professor Cerio felt the same same way about Doc's techniques but never said it publically out of respect. Much of Cerio's style was rooted in the Karazenpo Go Shinjtutsu of senior Grandmasters' Victor 'Sonny' Gascon (Kajukenbo) and S. George Pesare and modified through Cerio's studies under Professor William Kwai Sun Chow. Junk? I think not. Take it up individually with these men if you wish. Respect, yes, respect, something that is slowly but surley disintergrating in the arts of today. Too bad.

    Personally, if I was in that position and I have been on several occasions over the years, I simply tell the student(s) yes, that technique is fine from Master John Smith but here is my personal perspective or interpretation of the movement. What we have here are simply acceptable levels of variations and that we all have individual stylistic differences. Take what you like and learn it. I would never put down another teacher in front of an audience with the mindset of 'my style is better than your style'. I have also been trained and certified to teach and make instructors in police defensive tactics as I know Doc has also been. In our training in Massachusetts it is stressed to NEVER EVER put down another D.T. instructor in front of other officers if your technique differs from his/hers and we were told to explain it as an 'acceptable level of variation'. At the F.B.I. academy in Virginia they tell you that when you go for a promotional interview never put down your competition of why he/she shouldn't get the job BUT instead give reasons why YOU should be chosen for the position. Great advice, I think.

    In defense of Doc and let me make this perfectly clear, I have the utmost respect for him, I mean that, and have defended him on forums when others in EPAK have come down on him. I am very surprised that he said something like that but since I did not hear him say it directly, I will give him the benefit of the doubt of heresay. If Doc did 'slip', it happens, we're all human, and did say something like that, I'm sure he wouldn't want it repeated on a public forum, not the Doc I have come to know over the years through correspondence. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

    *Edited for grammar correction
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2006
  4. kmguy8

    kmguy8 Not Sin Binned

    why is this not in the Kenpo section?
    that is why it exists right?
  5. Bil Gee

    Bil Gee Thug

    Then the rest of us would miss out on a good old fashioned lineage war.:D
  6. kenpoguy

    kenpoguy The Last Dragon


    Sorry KenpoDavid. I was unable to get off work to attend that weekend, but i'm glad it went well. :)
  7. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I don't think anybody who was there (4 or 5 of us) thought twice about any insult to the memory of Nick Cerio :/ But, read more carefuly, please

    it wasn't during the seminar, it was the day before. And one thing I've learned about Doc Chapel, if he thinks something is not effective, he is not shy about saying so, no matter the source.
  8. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    You might get another chance this Spring.... stay tuned
  9. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    David, we have always had a cordial relationship on the many forums we have participated in so don't take this personally. Professor Cerio isn't around anymore to defend himself and it seems like when that happens, as in Mr. Parker's case, people take cheap shots. Doc is entitled to his opinion and you answered my question as I did say I gave him the benefit of the doubt of Doc saying that at a public seminar. What I also stated is if Doc did say that then I'm sure he wouldn't want to be quoted as such on an open forum. You are telling me this was a private get together with Doc, so therefore you should have thought twice about posting what someone says to you in private. Furthermoire, your instructor never studied under Professor Cerio so any technique he may have gotten most likely came from a book or a video, not exactly the best way to comprehend someone's system, a great supplement to those already there but hardly a replacement for someone who doesn't know Nick Cerio's Kenpo from Tae Kwon Do. Maybe Sub Level Four is great for someone who is merely teaching the surface arts (I have seen your instructor's techniques on his web page) so I can understand your enthusiasm but for those who have been around, well, it's still good stuff but so is what the Nick Cerio's Kenpo people do also. I think the problem is some teach commerical or theatrical type of Kempo/Kenpo to market it but don't lump us all together because as a law enforcement officer still very active going on 30 years, I use my art to get my butt home safe after every tour of duty. I'm not retired and I don't sit behind a desk, I am not a dojo warrior or arm chair sifu either. Respectfully, Professor Joe
  10. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Sorry David but I just have to address this also.
    You posted:

    Doc Chapel was kind enough to provide a letter of recommendation describing the qualifications of our Profesor Geary. You can read it here:



    Gimme a break! David, I've been in the arts since 1973 and if I wanted to be a name dropper and drop names of martial artists whom I've considered friends, whom I've trained with, visited and/or conducted seminars at my school, attended their seminars, socialized with, who've stayed at my home, I've stayed at some of their homes, your instructor would have an orgasm over it! My point being I have NEVER asked or even hinted for a letter of evaluation of skill or any other self serving b.s. from any of them PERIOD! Please don't tell me it was Doc's idea either, man, he was being paid to come over and do a seminar, talk about putting the guy on the spot! Geez!!!!!!!!!
  11. DEATHskull

    DEATHskull TKD Bearfighter

    That website makes me laugh.
  12. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    'Enough is Enough'

    Deathskull, please don't think ill of Professor Cerio and Gm. Gascon for I know they are mentioned on his website. There is also a reason for the negative remark about Prof. Cerio posted here. I have just been told by a kempo brother to go to this website:, do search under the name "Geary" and look for "The man, the myth, the DEMI-GOD, lol and check it out. In the last several posts by 'Chinese Kenpo' has some solid info. He is not a member of the KGS BBS of Gm. Gascon or of Nick Cerio's Kenpo but this guy seems to have some good contacts in both systems. In the meantime, the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society (KGS BBS) has posted that they will be releasing a special message soon about this situation. I would like to state that I am affiliated with the KGS BBS, holding the office of state director of Massachusetts. I am also affiliated with Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. I would also like to state that I have had several phone conversations with Mr. Geary prior to the problems with the KGS BBS. Our talks have always been very cordial although I may not agree with him on his current views and opinions, so I wasn't out to hang the guy but enough is enough. Respectfully, Professor Joe
  13. DEATHskull

    DEATHskull TKD Bearfighter

    Hahah, the very first post of that thread explains precisely why I think that website is funny.
  14. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Ostrich? Ego? Secrets?

    David, you stated:

    Don't be an ostrich. Don't let politics, history, and bad blood that has nothing to do with you and your Kenpo prevent you from being your best. What he has to say about what you've been taught might be hard to hear, it might challenge your ego... but approach it with an open mind and no ego and you might just change your (kenpo) life.

    First, who's an ostrich? From what I understand to be fact, your instructor doesn't let his students go to any tournaments outside his own schools! Hello? A little controlling, ya think? Maybe, insecure? Lack of true self confidence, self doubt?
    Also, you mention to approach it with an open mind and no ego? David, no student from your school should lecture anyone about EGO for his websites speak for themselves in anyone's language. Please, any talk of egos should be directed toward your 'founder' as you call him. You mention at the bottom of your post about the 'secrets' of Kung Fu. The only 'magic' or secrets in the martial arts is within YOU and how hard and dilligently you wish to work at self development. You also state, I'm paraphrasing, about politics and bad blood interfering with you progress, I totally agree with you there but it wasn't Gm. Gascon or Professor Cerio who drew first blood. I'm sure you and Chris would like to see this all go away, anyone would, well, I for one am always looking for the diplomatic and peaceful solution to these situations but Chris has done nothing to promote an atmosphere for peace. I know he believes in a saying that he has linked Gm. Gascon to and that's about 'negative publicity' in that 'any publicity is good publicity', well, that is not quite what Grandmaster mean't. There is a limit. There are martial arts instructors who have been arrested on drug trafficking charges, child molestation, rape, murder and one guy I knew from my area was on the 11 o'clock news one night as the serial mugger in Boston, attacking women by punching them out and taking their handbags! He got a lot of publicity, do you think it helped him in the arts? lol. Then the Marco Island, Florida publicity your instructors received all over the newspapers and the internet, do you really believe any publicity is good publicity? I don't. David, you appear to be a serious martial artsit who's heart is in the right place so follow your own path and let no one sway you (and that's including me) because that is the only way you will find the truth you are seeking. You told everyone to keep an open mind, David, you keep an open mind also. Take care & be safe, Professor Joe
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2006
  15. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Important Message

    I saw this posted on Bullshido today. It was taken from our website of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society. I felt it appropiate to post here. I think it says it all. I understand that Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. has taken measures also to prevent similiar situations in the future. Thank you, Prof. Joe Shuras, Massachusetts president, KGS BBS


    Effective immediately the KGS BBS will submit membership applications to you for approval. Great Grandmaster Gascon will have the final say. Any KGS BBS State Representative that can show good cause to deny membership to applicants will have the chance to do so before acceptance. Members from said states or other states must submit in writing your concerns about applicants to the KGS BBS State Reprentative.

    The KGS BBS State Representative along with the Executive Board will review applicantations and approve or deny. All members under each State should be given notice to review applicant names. We will post an application pending page so all members can see and report to the State Rep. any information they have on applicants good or bad.

    There have been some regrettable mistakes made by the executive board in the past; we are working at making the enrollment process a shared process between members and the Executive Board. We are only human, and always try to look at each individual in a positive light. However we feel keeping the State Rep's and members involved will help the organization maintain our standards.
  16. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    The "ostrich" comment was meant for anyone who was afraid to go to a seminar where they might get told that what they are doing is not as effective as something else that they might learn to do. Mostly, as far as SL-4 is concerend, that means people that study EPAK. For example, there is a chain of EPAk school in Kansas City, 100s of students, and they didn't see fit to send even one person. Not even one inquiry about it from any student or instructor. That is who I meant. I have been told that out of the thousands of EPAK students within driving distance of the SL-4 shcool in LA, very very few bother to come and just meet SGM Parker's closest student and friend. That's an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

    I don't think calling a technique "junk" or "ineffectve" or even "crap" is a "cheap shot". He didn't say "Cerio was a jerk" or even "The people who run NCK today are liars and frauds". Either one of those might be considered "cheap shots", even if they might be true or not. What he said was his opinion about the effectiveness of that technique. One thing Doc shared with us is his perception of martal art vs martial science. In "science", you test theories to determine what works and what does not. In art, eveything is OK, value judgements are rare. So, since Doc frames his material as "martial science" he evaluates techniques and ideas, and classifies them as effective or ineffective.

    I don't think Prof. Geary ever claimed to have studied under Prof. Cerio, just that he received a black belt from him, the certificate says "American Kenpo" not NCK. Where did he learn that particular technique that Doc was referring to? I have no idea - honestly I couldn't even tell you what technique it was, now, 4 months later. It may not even have been a technique that was taught by Prof. Cerio. It was something that reminded Doc of the techniques from NCK, and it looked ineffective to him, and so he said so. Is you position here, Prof. Shuras, that everything that Nick Cerio did is now above critique and should not be judged??? Does a founder's death magically perfect a system?

    You have much more experince than me so maybe from your vantage point you can lump together SL-4, American Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, KGS, KJK etc and minimize the differences but to me the differences are still intersting and informative. Doc CHapel showed us some things, deeper levels of basics, that looked like magic to me. For example even the most minor alteration of a hand or foot position will magnify the strength/balance of a stance. When I can reist, without effrot, the force of a 300lb man; and then move my foot 15 degrees or less, and he pushes me over with ease... that's deep.

    re: name dropping. Prof. Geary asked Doc Chapel to sign that, and Prof. Geary asked m to post the link here. It has whatever value any reader attaches to it and no more. Doc was very generous to sign it.

    As a New England Liberal LOL I'm sure you are blind to media bias (just kidding with you), so let me say this: Have you ever seen a newspaper publish a story "Dog does not bite man" or "No tragedy to report today"? Of course not. So I will tell you what the Naples News will not: Most if not all of the charges were later dropped. The equipment that was destroyed in Marcos Island belonged to Prof. Geary himself. The man running the school for Prof. Geary and the investigating officer in the case appear to have gone into business teaching martial arts in that same location, but sadly for them they had to buy their own carpet and mirrors and training equipment because the stuff owned by Prof. Geary was not there for them to use. I am not defending what he did there, I am jsut adding some facts that were left out of the original news story. Is it you usual habit to base your understanding of something from exactly ONE newspaper report?

    Prof. Geary often does things that don't make sense to me or that I would have done differently. My job is not to dfend him or explain his actions. I understand why you would re-open a thread that was idle for 4 months in order to smear a little mud on Prof. Geary - he has openly aired some dirty laundry about your organization, and turn about is fair play, right? So go ahead get your hands dirty too, it's your right to do so.

    hey, Deathskull, please point me to some better MA school websites, maybe we can learn some things to improve Do me a favor and when you find one please tell me what is better about it, OK?

  17. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Thanks for the response

    Hi David, No, I don't put Professor Cerio or Mr. Parker up on a pedestal and say everything they did is above reproach and criticism. Everyone is subject to 'mistakes' for it is the human condition. Prof. Cerio made a mistake with Chris Geary. There is a proper and respectful way to 'sell' someone on what you are teaching without putting someone else down as I explained to you (in a previous post) as I was taught in my police defensive tactics training and my example with the F.B.I. academy. There is a right way and wrong way to get your point across. Why offend anyone if you don't have to and I disagree with you about the cheap shot. All our seniors both past and present were very proud of their systems and what they taught so when you call someone's material 'junk', well, that's a slap in the face in anyone's book. If you don't believe me just go to some senior's seminar, step up on the mat and say to him: Sorry, sir, but I think your technique is junk but don't take offense it's just constructive criticism, lol, and have the paramedics on stand by. Since you also mentioned Parker's Kenpo then next time Mr. Larry Tatum has a seminar have your founder go up to his face and tell him he's teaching 'junk'. Better still, Doc would never go to someone's seminar and say that and you know it. My point is, if you're going to say it at all in that tone be sure you have the same bravado to say it to a man's face as you would behind his back. You see, David, I'm not a back stabber, I'm a chest stabber, you'll see me coming! In this case, guys like Nick Cerio and Ed Parker are incapable of rebutting such statements. They're dead. It's up to their students to defend them now. No one and I mean no one ever went up to their faces and said these things when they were alive and that's a fact! Gm. Sonny Gascon is a prime example, for a few and just a few have some things to say about Gm. Gascon but I'm willing to bet not one of them and this includes your 'founder' who appears to have a mouthful lately will ever say it to his face. As a matter of fact, I know they won't. The KGS BBS will be on tour for visits and seminars for 2006, the 'founder' is invited to attend any of them if he wishes.

    I know what you mean't by the 'ostrich' comment but it just reminded me how your instructor has his head in the sand when it comes to letting his students compete outside his schools! I also understand what you're saying about Doc and Sub Level Four for Doc and I have had many correspondence in the past which brings this to mind. Yes, Doc, told me a lot of things, many things, and do you know what? He also asked me to keep it in confidence and I have and will. Again, I think what he said in your presence the night before at a private get together was not mean't to be published in an open forum, know what I mean? I think it's pretty pathetic that your instructor WROTE THE ACTUAL LETTER ATTESTING TO HIS ABIITIES HIMSELF AND ASKED DOC TO SIGN IT!!! I won't get into it here, but I know for a fact your instructor has done that before on his website, writing quotes for others and asking for their approval. Sometimes you put good people on the spot and they don't want to offend you so they reluctently go along with it, others are more forthcoming. Lastly David, don't forget I've been in law enforcement since 1977 and have built many, many contacts over the years, that was not a spin, a slant or mis-reporting by the newspapers on what transpired on Marco Island, Florida, it was the truth and there was more to it than that and it wasn't favorable either. Stop by a state or federal prison, David, and ask around, I think you'll find there's not a guilty man there. So, I think it's best to drop that one.

    Dave, you stated:

    For example even the most minor alteration of a hand or foot position will magnify the strength/balance of a stance. When I can reist, without effrot, the force of a 300lb man; and then move my foot 15 degrees or less, and he pushes me over with ease... that's deep.

    David, the only thing I'll say is this. If you're ever in my area I'll arrange for you to go on some ride-alongs during busy times and I will take you to a local gin mill where they have had so many problems that they hired a highly respected U.F.C fighter to work the door now backed up by two uniformed police officers. By the way, two Friday nights ago a 21 year old was stabbed to death outside his home, overflow from the inner- city gangs, two were arrested. This is the reality where one sees what works and doesn't work, not the dojo and you have no second chance. You can't tell your opponent, 'could you please go back and punch in again, I really wasn't ready that time', lol. David, I thank you and respect you for answering my posts and I do listen to your points, some I agree with and some I don't just like you. We should both always keep an open mind. I promise I will too. Take care, my brother, Prof. Joe
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2006
  18. DEATHskull

    DEATHskull TKD Bearfighter

    I wasn't referring to with that post, everything on that site is pretty standard for a martial arts school's website. I was talking about
  19. KGS BBS

    KGS BBS Valued Member

    Request from Prof. Michael Rash

    Prof. Shuras,
    I was forwarded this guestbook entry on Geary's web site.
    Dear Professor Geary,

    I too was a member of the KGSBBS and became very disappointed. Not only were
    they self serving, Mr Rash was very disrespectful and lacked any
    knowledge at all. I am sure that SIJO Gascon doesn't know what Rash is
    doing or he wouldn't allow it. When you leave the oganization, then he
    threatens you. Although, I doubt he would carry out his threats. My advice
    is stay away.


    As you know I have never threatened anyone.
    In the past that when threats were directed at me they were answered. I never
    initiated them.
    I do find it quite humorous that this so called ex member BP is using a fake
    I must have terrified BP he is using a fake name.
    Must be in the witness protection program?
    " I doubt that he would follow through" REALLY?
    Why the fake name? (Remember this happened once before?)
    Geary follows through! Ask the GIRL in Florida.
    Prof. Shuras feel free to share this E mail. I am getting ready to leave for
    Hawaii this afternoon. I'll call you from GM Gascon's house. Will be back home
    Monday the 23rd
    Today I will post some information about Geary on our site.
    Originally I know I told you we would not respond to Geary.
    In the interest of fairness, I need to address his crap.
    Then his anonymous friend needs to be dealt with.
    Talk to you Friday afternoon
    Prof. Rash
  20. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Did you see the technique that Doc was commenting on? Do you know if it was a technique that was developed and taught by Nick Cerio? Can you say for sure that those 3 seconds of movement by Prof. Geary were not junk??? Then why are you are blowing this one comment about one technique so far out of context that it is almost funny?? And, none of this was said BY Prof. Geary. Prof. Geary was demonstating some techniques that represent our style, and Doc Chapel told him what he thought about it. Maybe to you that would have been a slap in the face for Doc Chapel to tell you what you are doing is not as good as it could be, but Prof. Geary's response (not hypothetical, his actual response to the comment you are obsessing about) was to discuss ways to make it better.

    Some of us have taken part in some tournaments, and found them to be a pointless waste of time. I can play tag with my little nephews any time I like. We find tournament style sparring to be uselss in helping us develop in how we want to fight. I don't think this is a unique position...
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