Kenjutsu and Jujutsu

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by boards, Sep 6, 2013.

  1. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    I was reading a novel about a koryu kenjutsu practitioner, and started wondering whether the koryu that only focus on kenjutsu or jojutsu include jujutsu as applied to the sword the way it is in medieval western martial arts? Is it just that they don't teach a separate jujutsu curriculum? Or has it been removed the way later fencing manuals did in Europe?
  2. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Broadly speaking, there are Koryu that specialise in teaching specific diciplines and then there are ones that teach a more comprehensive range.

    As I understand it (with my limited knowledge), this was also the same with Eurpopean Medieval MA.

    But, if I understand your enquiry correctly - is there a connection between the diciplines? Well, in most "sogo-bujutsu" (comprehensive systems) there is.

    The way you move in the kenjutsu element of training is directly related to how you do so in the jujutsu side of things.

    It's about engraining a way/process of fighting that covers all.

  3. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Thankyou Gary.
    I was actually wondering more about the non comprehensive styles. If you look at the longsword fighting of Fiore de Libieri (which would be close to your sogo-bujutsu) you have a fair number of moves like this:

    My question was more if purely weapons based styles, like Komagawa Kaishin-ryƫ for example, included many techniques like this? Looking at Kuroda Tetsuzan, most of his demonstrations don't seem to show this kind of sword grappling.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  4. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Some do, some don't.

    I imagine Fiore would be aghast if he saw modern fencing. Some JSA schools also now do ONLY sword work, having let the grappling go by the wayside, or were perhaps specialist schools from their inception.

    In contrast, if you look at Kashima Shin Ryu, from a Fiore/Liechtenauer perspective it is a cornucopia of epic awesomeness. Kindred spirits, if you will.

    There's really no way to generalize a koryu art. Some koryu kenjutsu schools are very grapply, others are not.

  5. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    Having read this, possibly over simplifying but looks to me like this ryu includes very traditional jujitsu, long/short staff, sword techniques and philosophical elements I would guess the history of the organisation would also be taught.

    So next question I have, what's the actual difference between the jujitsu being taught in a school like this compared to more modern schools (by modern I mean anywhere that doesn't have the koryru historical / preservation elements).

    It also occurred to me having read the above link, that I don't think I would be able to tell the difference between aikido and jujitsu, seems a lot of arts stem from jujitsu.
  6. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Often modern schools are an amalgamation of arts such as Judo, Aikido and Karate, that may not always be the case but in many instances it is.

    Due to this you don't tend to see the same level of cohesion within the system that you would do in koryu.

    The atemi within koryu will tend to take into account the fact you will be armed or even in armour, they will be more anachronistic in nature with sleeve and lapel grabs alongside open hand strikes and hammer fists. Obviously in modern systems you would expect to see strikes common today and hopefully other culturally relevant characteristics.

    The throws can be somewhat less civil in that they can make it very hard to break fall from or throw the person in such a way as to snap, break or generally mess up some joint.

    Also with the inclusion of weapons the whole system will often have elements that take these into account, how you fall, throw, strike and even walk will be influenced by being armed. You probably won't see that in modern systems simply due to that the ethos is different almost reversed due to us not being an armed culture.

    Weapons are often just tacked on as something exotic rather than being an integral part of the teachings.

    Then there is the mindset behind training, the constant application of zanshin, the use of the eyes and general sense of gravitas within kata can be rather different to what one encounters in modern eclectic systems.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  7. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    These "tacked on" weapons techniques are also often particularly poorly done. You just can't take some empty hand stuff and add a katana or tonfa or whatever and call it good and expect that it's functional. That stuff really ticks me off.

  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    My gravitas cleared up quite nicely, thanks to the cream the chemist gave me.
  9. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Thought that was gravity ass?

    A common technique employed by Ninja to disrupt their opponents blance by using their unusually large mid region.
  10. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Damn autocorrect!

    The itchy zanshin is still playing up though. Maybe its fungal? Right around the sock suspenders. :)
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2013
  11. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    As for these unarmed derivative arts with bolt-on weapons....they itch worse.

    Everyone seems to want to twirl a damned sword around!
  12. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Isn't that swollen kukan-balls that do that?
  13. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Unless your etiquette starts as follows:

    "OK you primitive screwheads, listen up!".

    In which case it's perfectly fine. Grooovy.

  14. Pieman

    Pieman Valued Member

    Sounds like this could be bad for your health. Being laid out on the mat and going splat.

    I think I get the general idea though, its like preserving a language or a ancient building - the importance is in the passing of the system and practices down to the next generation preserving the teaching as it was before.

    I guess these guys would frown on cross training in multiple arts although I see that the top guys came from mixed backgrounds themselves e.g. "Inoue's interest is not limited within the modern budo, besides Hontai Yoshin Ryu, he has also mastered several stayles Iaido, and other Kobudo."?
  15. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Straight from the off, my instructor would demonstrate jujutsu techniques unarmed - and then again utilising kodachi / katana where applicable (Kogusoku).

    Essentially, they were the same techniques (adjusting for ma-ai and pointy things).

  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Multiple koryu can be tricky but you might be surprised at the attitudes to cross training.
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Sounds like a good bloke, do I know him?


    One of the most interesting things he did for me was take me through a throw but using different ryu as an example to show how things developed.
  18. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Not at all in my experience.

  19. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    In fact, in my experience, it seems the "you must not cross train to keep the art pure" stems from gendai systems that are perhaps too insular and dare I say it... insecure?

    This is probably for another thread!?

  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Elitist snob you!

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