What could possibly be flawed in learning to mimic the movements of a snake, tiger, monkey, dog, crane when I'm a man with a different physiology to all those. What possible choice of animal could I make that might be closer to a man, which animal's natural movements and fighting behaviours could I study... I feel I could be on the verge of something here... :bang: I'm sure that there is something out there that I could observe and learn from. No, I'm stumped.
Well then, we've come full circle. Since he knows the difference between fighting barefisted and fighting with boxing gloves on, that is the heart of the difference between karate and kickboxing. Not one thing at all about katas mentioned here.
Kickboxing really isn't that pure if you think about it. Kung Fu on the other hand is, what could be more purer than going back to nature for survival techniques which is what the animal styles of kung fu does. If I had to face someone in a dark alley one night who took on the role of a monkey or a badger or whatever I'd either be doubled up with laughter or scared to death.
Well, the badger would have your eye no probs. And jwt, I think you'll find Howlin' Mad Murdoch would have no problem imitating any animal very effectively. Murdoch-Fu.
Not really, because Both arts teach you how defend yourself in the street where you wont be slipping on gloves or performing a Kata.
That's a very narrow definition of 'kata' you have there. If I've trained a kata properly, I would be 'performing' one on the street. Wouldn't look much like a kata though. The whole point of kata is practical application. Katas are devices to learn techniques and to give examples of their use (note not the only way to use them). They're not useless dances.
I never said you did But by saying one will never perform a kata on the street it could be taken to mean that kata is ineffective. And you would be right, if you define kata simply as moving around in a prescribed way, using prescribed moves...
I'm sure there is something there for you to learn. Lets see, immitating animals is useless, huh? Let me think here then JWT, you can use spear hand strikes (immitating the snake)to the eyes, there is the eagle claw (immitating the eagle) for grabbing the throat and grabbing muscles such as in the bicip, there is the crane beak strike (immitating the crane striking with it's beak) to strike the eyes, throat, temple, etc..., you have leapoard paw strikes (immitating the leopard) to strike soft tissue areas and areas that have nerves such as the arm pit. Shall I keep going? Beside these self defense techniques that we kung fu practitioners use we also use the animals demeanor. For example the tiger is known for its power and aggression so someone who studies tiger style (fu jow) should be powerful. A perfect body fram for this style would be that of a football player or wrestler type physique. A crane is known for it's long range strikes and being graceful and well balanced.....some one who has long limbs (arm & legs) would normally be good at crane style. JWT, have i educated you yet on what can be learned from animal styles of kung fu? These styles were so feared that they were banned from practice in China during the cultural revolution for fear of uprisings. As a matter of fact all throughout China's history the Shaolin Temple's were constantly being attacked by bandits and war lords but guess what???? These monks that practiced these bizar animal forms of fighting often survived and defeated these atackers so there must be something to therse arts.
Brilliant, I have been away from this board for while, but just picked up on this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight (nor fresh water badger) so wont seek to become actively involved, apart from asking whether in fact JWT does feel more educated after that? Cant wait.
[ JWT, have i educated you yet on what can be learned from animal styles of kung fu? That wasn't patronizing at all
So you believe that kickboxers fight exactly the same way in the ring with boxing gloves on as they do in the street with no hand protection? Some do, when they are inexperienced at street fighting, but those with more experience, that have broken a hand or otherwise learned better, try to adapt better. Or are you saying the same thing that I'm saying, that if you take away the hand protection, kickboxing and karate are very similar. It is because of wearing boxing gloves that things end up different. If you are talking about kickboxing without gloves (barefisted fighting), then I would say, that is basically the same kind of environment that fighting in karate is based on.
[ Or are you saying the same thing that I'm saying, that if you take away the hand protection, kickboxing and karate are very similar. It is because of wearing boxing gloves that things end up different. If you are talking about kickboxing without gloves (barefisted fighting), then I would say, that is basically the same kind of environment that fighting in karate is based on.[/QUOTE] We are agreeing,I think.
Mind you, there could be mileage in animal thing. After all, I was walking along the river today with my kids and we came across a swan. Instinctively I thought.... Stay well clear kids, it'll break your arm if your not carefull! That could just be me and my weird family upbringing though.
Well that's cool. Your first post I guess I thought you were saying that kickboxing in the ring is the same as karate without kata... but if you also mean kickboxing outside the ring, such as kickboxing for self-defense, then I would agree that is a lot like karate without kata. If you take away the kata from karate, you end up with something like atemi-waza (striking) and a mix of joint locks, throws, etc. (jujutsu). You also end up with whatever else can be added to this given the "flavor" of the teachings. Without kata, it shouldn't be called karate, since kata is part of the fundamental building blocks of karate... but kata is not necessarily for creating a fighting system, just don't call it "traditional" karate if it is not based on kata. If you are interested in discussing how things are different as well as the same between barefisted fighting and fighting with boxing gloves, I would love to discuss further. Otherwise, I'll leave it at what we have now.
Gary, shaolin fighter has lifted the scales from my eyes. There I was looking at all those movements and seeing nothing more than predominantly instinctive and thus effective use of natural human physiology. And the funny thing was, the less stylised each was, the more it was like a slap, a grab, a push, poke or rake, the more naturally it could be applied with little or no training, the easier it could be accessed under the pressure of full contact combat simulations. How odd that the most effective pseudo-animal movements that we can use are the ones that man is also designed to use according to his own physiology to protect himself.
