KB without Katas

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Humblebee, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Sparring teaches you to move against another fighter who is expecting you to try and attack him as well as defend himself. The other aspect of sparring is that it teaches you to defend against a set of attacks, generally performed in a logical (and controlled - ie the other person isn't likely to massively over commit) fashion.

    What I do differs from sparring in several ways. Firstly one person (or group) is being themselves using all their repertoire while the other(s) is/are not. This latter group restrict their attacks to the most statistically common form of assaults which differ to a degree from the attacks you might defend against in sparring. In similar vein their attacks will be made with full commitment generally as if expecting to hit and not expecting any counter-attack - this creates a rather different dynamic. Unlike sparring a lot of talking and shouting goes on and one person can sometimes be talked down.

    In my opinion sparring is by comparison a worse option if you are training someone to react to defend themselves against realistic attacks while at the same time trying not to fight. Sparring is a better option if you are training someone to react to defend themselves if they are learning to defend for a situation that sparring is a replication of - ie competition fighting.
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Can we get back to this?

    Are these two ultimately the same?

    By bringing in Kata we've looked at the broader repertoire of Karate and, to an extent, its originally different purpose. How often that reflects the main training focus of a style/association/dojo is another question.
    So...
    what else form the bones of both systems?
    History and system ethos
    Reasons for training
    Club Ethos
    Training methodology

    I'd be keen to know if anyone can provide what they feel is a pretty generic kickboxing blueprint for the above because I'm sure it would differ significantly to a number of the Karate blueprints I know.
     
  3. prowla

    prowla Valued Member

    Yep - a sort of gyaku extrapolation. (I bet nobody has ever said that before!)

    Taking it to its logical conclusion, maybe it could form the basis of a whole new style; something sort of minimalist, perhaps the art of "".
     
  4. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Ten years ago, maybe even five years ago, I would have agreed with that statement. Without kata, we're left with kihon and kumite, which as typically taught generally resemble kickboxing. However, the kata are ultimately the heart of karate. In there you will find standing grappling, throws, foul tactics and so on. Unfortunately the way most karate classes are taught, kata is just for belt requirements, and only serious students seem to really look into them.

    Replying to these both at the same time... It's clear that both parties see pressure-testing and full-contact training as being necessary for progress in one's ability to handle a live situation. Where the difference seems to be is what is defined as "sparring". Personally speaking I see any so-called "alive" training as a form of sparring, it's just all a matter of context. If you're doing something with good, alive energy, even if its scope is limited to, say, only defending jabs, or only working guard passes, to me that's still sparring, just what I would term as "situational sparring" as opposed to "free sparring". And though I am inclined to agree that, generally speaking, so-called "sport" martial artists tend to perform better when the rubber hits the road, that's because of the nature of their training. I've got a passing familiarity with Dr. Titchen's training methods, and if I were preparing someone for a self-defense situation, I'd try to employ similar methods to his, as opposed to, say, preparing someone for a kickboxing and judo match, to use SPX's example. They both use "alive" training, but the key difference is specificity. The practitioner might be armed with the same punches, kicks, throws and sweeps, but instead of learning how to counter Uchimata or a spin kick, he's learning to counter haymakers, lapel grabs into a headbutt, a chest push followed by a punch, and other "habitual acts of violence". The prelude to the fight and the environment, which will likely provide far less room than a ring or a cage, can also be replicated in such an environment.

    I see where you're going with this, but you can do MMA sparring, etc, without going hammer-and-tongs all the time. In BJJ we set a percentage when rolling. Same thing with boxing/striking sparring. There are some people I just love-tap, and others who I'm pretty sure I stand a good chance of KOing. Old dudes can still spar with young dudes. As long as they're not prepping for a fight there's no reason to try to go out and kill them, but at the same time it's still MMA sparring.

    I thought like this for the longest time. Check out stuff by our own Dr. John Titchen (jwt), and also Iain Abernethy and others. I have yet to find a method I agree with 100%, but there are many good sources that I've found that give kata practical applications. For example, that reverse punch is aimed at chest level 'cause that's where you've pulled your opponent's head down to, and that high block isn't a block, and that deep stace is used to sweep or throw your opponent. Just look around.
     
  5. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    MAP terms of service defines trolling as "making posts with the intention of creating problems on the forums". This post does not fit this definition. Neither do most posts of the same vein. The use of forms is controversial, and as you yourself acknowledge most of the percieved uselessness of forms comes from the way they're being taught. Just about every Eastern striking art uses solo forms, and it's safe to say that practical, common sense applications are not usually taught. In fact more often than not, no application is taught. I don't think it's unreasonable that since 90% or better of martial arts schools don't teach forms in a way that gives them any practical value, for so many threads to be out there questioning the place of forms.

    Which, incidentally, the OP did not. The question was, is kickboxing just karate without kata. Not, are kata useless.

    Well, although he said it in a rather abrupt manner, I think the spirit of his response was reasonable. Instead of offering constructive input, your post simply stated that you were tired of this and related threads. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask those who post simply to complain, to either add to the conversation or to leave.

    Are you refering to the Wai Khru? The ritualistic "dance" used to preceed a match? Because at least from the Muay Thai I've taken and from what my friend who spent time training in Thailand told me, there really isn't much in the way of forms, at least not how they look in other Eastern striking systems. As for Western boxing, shadow boxing is not the same thing as a form. It is not preset, there is no memorization, there is no collection of techniques that needs interpretation. At first glace Western shadow-boxing may have some similarities to Eastern kata, poomse, and so on, but there are many fundamental differences.

    You're putting words into his mouth. The full-contact, limited-rules sparring that he advocates protects the safety of the participants but allows for the closest expression possible to a real fight, much closer that what is typically used in forms practice. They don't shoot people in to space to teach them how to survive in space, but neither to they have them sit around in a room and imagine what living in space would be like. They put them in safe, simulated environments that give them the best chance of functioning in a dangerous situation. That's the difference between the way forms are normally taught and the way that sparring and other "alive" training is conducted. His statement was that there are plenty of other methods, besides forms, that would benefit one in a real fight. Not that people should throw away their humanity.

    You don't need "forms, heritage, history, culture and the rest" to produce someone who's capable of defending themselves. And that's why this is still about martial arts. In fact I've seen people get so wrapped up in forms, culture, etc that their ability to teach peole to defend themselves suffered. Doesn't have to be that way, but if you're teaching people how to survive, surely it's better to drop, say, foreign rituals than "alive" drills that can improve their defensive skills?
     
  6. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Who are you calling a ditz here?

    Again, you have failed to recognize that this thread isn't about kata being useless. It's a comparison of karate to kickboxing. I'd also like to note than many of the "MMA folks" you're railling against train in TKD, Aikido, Judo, karate, and kung fu. This isn't the first time you've made an accusation like that, or the first time you've been wrong about it.

    I'd think this would be relatively simple, especially with the likes of Youtube and such these days. Neumerous violent confrontations have been captured on film. We review them, see what patterns emerge, and simulate those circumstances as best we can.

    You're comparing apples and oranges in this statement. You have subjectivity vs. objectivity. When talking about sword technique or boxing style, the correct answer is usually, "it depends on variables X, Y, and Z". Sword thrusts suck if you've got a scimitar, but cuts suck if you've got a rapier. Boxers beat sluggers, infighters beat boxers, sluggers beat infighters. These factors have been observed often enough to draw a "90%" conclusion about them, allowing for personal skill, luck and other variables.
     
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I disagree:

    Here is what the TS wrote and how he titled this thread.

    "..............................

    KB without Katas

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Training with a friend of mine the other day he remarked,''Karate when you get to the bones of it is just Kickboxing without all the Katas''.

    He got me thinking maybe he has a point, what do you think.

    .................................."

    So what do I think? I think this is just one more invitation to a "kata-bashing" thread and that the only point involved is the one at the top of..... etc etc etc.

    I appreciate the response, Callsign, but I stand by my original evaluation. Wanna do somebody a favor, tell the guy who started this thread to do some reading on his own. I can recommend a number of authors including Funakoshi, Nakayama, Sugiyama, Clayton, Abernathy and Urquidez. Of course, if he happens to subscribe to the idea that "real MA" don't read books, then, by all means, have at it.

    BTW: For an intelligent treatment of the matter of swords you might want to read either Amberger and/or Patton. The simile' was spot-on, given the context of the remark.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2008
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I am happy to take the statement and the question and not see it as an invitation to Kata bashing. Given your previous posts I feel that we'd get a lot more from you if you did the same.
     
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thats fine, jwt. Just know that the expectations for contributions and the quality of those contributions tends to drop rather than rise with time. There is a reason that participants here do not encourage folks to research their subjects before starting a thread. There is a reason that people do not use and often avoid citations in presenting an answer. There is a reason that many of the discussions here are based on opinion rather than empirical evidence. Given that there are reasons for these behaviors, it is possible to address these reasons and therefore address the behaviors.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  10. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    [QUOTE=Bruce tell the guy who started this thread to do some reading on his own.


    Why dont you tell me instead of throwing your toys out of the pram.

    I am not Kata Bashing at all but I haven't read or studied the principles of Katas.
    I dont spend my time reading about MA I spend my time doing it.
     
  11. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    Some people would argue that Kickboxing is Karate in it's purest form.:evil:
     
  12. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Are you talking about the physical manifestation of the two as opposed to other elements? If yes I can see why some people could argue that quite successfully fi they were comparing it with competitive kumite, but they would only be selecting a small number of its combative techniques and, I would argue, not necessarily the best.
     
  13. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    I agree, but on the mat,in the ring,the street or any pressure situation only a small number of techniques(if any at times) come into play.
     
  14. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    It could also be argued that not many techniques are needed for effective SD or fighting skills.
     
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Absolutely. For me though they've always been ones that I learnt in kata and never ever used in Kumite such as an intercepting hand, 'blocks', forearm, elbow and knee strikes. :)
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter



    I have to say that given the amount of information available in my local library when I first started training in the MA, on MA in general and on Karate in particular, the amount of information in it now, and the amount of MA books I have found in University libraries over the years - I'd personally seek out a multi-style forum like MAP with my questions over the libraries any day. I'd also seek out MAP opinions over most of the Karate instructors I had when I was younger too - they were generally intelligent people, but they had longevity in training rather than experience.

    Is it just me or is the festive season bringing out more raw nerves on MAP than normal?
     
  18. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Bruce, I respect the amount of time you have dedicated to martial arts, but please; rather than insulting paciFIST, shadow and myself, just ignore the thread. There are those of us who would like to discuss the question asked by the TS rather than arguing whether or not he should have asked it. As jwt said, many libraries don't have good info on MA, and if you just look for info via google search you'll turn up so many conflicting opinions that it's much simpler to ask the question on a forum you trust (i.e. MAP).
     
  19. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    bruce Almighty

     
  20. kokuToraRyu

    kokuToraRyu Valued Member

    I’m gonna through a spanner in the works now!!!!

    This thread has compared traditional Karate with Kickboxing and yes I agree with most of you but what I cannot see that has been discussed in this thread is the comparison between Ashihara, Enshin and Kyokushin, Seidokan and Off shots compared with kickboxing.

    With Ashihara and Enshin, we stand in a 'boxing stance’; we also have our guard like a boxer's. We shin block and elbow strike we have also had labels like 'Muay Thai in a Gi'.

    The one thing we have that kickboxing doesn't is Kata, but Kata can be construed as just a serious of combinations put together to assist with training.

    Karate is much more Karate is a way of life; kickboxing is something that can be done whilst you fit enough.

    Sorry, just MHO
     

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