KB without Katas

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Humblebee, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I don't know about the avatar, but I have to tell you that I get real tired with these trolling threads about the uselessness of forms. I have yet to follow ONE of these sorts of threads and not have it turn-out that the TS and his supporters are most often
    a.) uninformed about the nature and origins of forms and
    b.) have no idea how to appropriately interface form-work with the rest of their training.

    Its not my fault that there are instructors who are ignorant and pass that ignorance on to another generation. I do think, however, that people who extol the virtues of dropping the use of forms from MA work oughto be made to read the last 50 or 60 Threads on the subject before being allowed to start yet ANOTHER such thread. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  2. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    Then read another thread Bruce.

    When people talk about The most effective striking art for street defence Karate isn't usually first on the list.
    Kickboxing however is usually in the top 3.
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Sorry to share this, but your response highlights exactly what I am talking about.

    a.) Asking me not to participate in this thread seems to be the INTERNET equivalent of "love it or leave it". My point is why do these same themes continually return with no greater likelihood of resolution? Are we, then, about bandwidth for its own sake?

    b.) As for the matter of whats "effective on the street" I never understood that was part and parcel of the original querie.

    c.) You may want to check on the actual practice of MUAY THAI. There is, in fact, a role for forms in MUAY THAI just as there is a role for "shadow boxing" in Western Boxing.

    d.) How much actual research, reading or other reflection has the TS actually done before opening his keyboard and putting his foot on it? If forms are such a waste of time how is it that such full-contact arts as KYOKUSHIN Karate still train in their forms? Am I to conclude that Oyama was misdirected?

    But, as I said, here we go again. Round and round and round. No new information or input---- just one opinion followed by another.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. shadow_priest_x

    shadow_priest_x Moved on

    You might be onto something. . .
     
  5. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    If I understand JWT correctly, he is saying take kickboxing and MMA even a step further. IMO, kickboxing, submission grappling, and MMA are the ultimate live testing ground for working techniques against resisting partners for healthy young athletes who are evenly matched. I also believe that just throwing people in there without a solid base and continual, evolving effective drills is merely a throwback to the old' "weed out the wimps" method of teaching that many of us old timers came up under in the '60's (really old timers) and '70's (semi-old like me).

    IMO, if forms are taught and trained properly, then it is a syllabus towards the close quarter techniques against common attacks from mostly unskilled opponents. They ARE useless IF you don't do anything with them by breaking them down and drilling them in a live fashion which the majority of schools neglect. Many of the techniques from forms are a really good base for drills and strategies for RBSD systems. I also believe that adding RBSD training as well as practical weapons training from the FMA's to the MMA training is stepping up a level from just the ring sport, though the ring (or cage)sport is a valuable tool and one that I am glad that has evolved.

    Too many people are mentally stuck in a revolution against the impractical training of the stereotypical McDojo. They feel that full contact live training is the only way to go. And that MMA is the ultimate expression of that and that anything else is a complete waste of time in training. Well, I disagree at least in part. I am a very big, physically powerful man. For me to spar full contact with a 110 lbs female would not be of much help to her learning process for self defense. I am also a skilled technical grappler who can squat over 800 lbs and bench near 600 (raw). How many students really would want to or benefit rolling with me for real? Also, as age and (especially) injuries are starting to catch up with me, I can see why a little further down the line MMA sparring won't be nearly as fun anymore. Even IF that weren't the case, you can only take so much heavy contact in training. IMO, live pressure testing is an essential part when people are ready for it, but even then, only as a part of their training. It's also much harder to really improve skill sets under heavy adrenal stress. You improve during drills and training, you test that improvement under live sparring.

    Finally, by incorperating drills from RBSD systems (and drills from traditional katas are also a very good source if you understand the kyusho and tuite applications) into your training on top of the MMA, I think you can evolve your self defense training to an even higher level. MMA is a great tool and one that is a major part of what I teach, but it is not always appropriate for all students. All students can benefit from at least part of it, but there are always going to be some that who either physically or mentally will never be ready for that. The RBSD stuff will still be a lot of help for them. And it along with the FMA work we do can help plug any holes left that the MMA doesn't take care of. I feel that a shock knife is still live enough for my purposes in knife work.
     
  6. shadow_priest_x

    shadow_priest_x Moved on

    I honestly believe that forms may have a place in martial arts but I don't think they have a lot to do with learning how to fight. Personally, I might want forms to be part of the art I study just because I enjoy doing them. It's also something else you can compete in, which for some people is another benefit.

    However, there is one thng that concerns me. As many people say, you'll fight in a real confrontation like you train in the gym. And most forms are full of reverse punches and high blocks and wide, deep stances, virtually none of which is useful for real combat.

    You asked, "How much actual research, reading or other reflection has the TS actually done before opening his keyboard and putting his foot on it? If forms are such a waste of time how is it that such full-contact arts as KYOKUSHIN Karate still train in their forms? Am I to conclude that Oyama was misdirected?"

    I could easily turn this around and ask, "Why aren't the top MMA trainers like Greg Jackson and Pat Milletich incorporating forms work into their training?" When Pat developed Milletich Fighting Systems, why didn't he realize the value of forms work when training people to fight against other people?

    Don't get me wrong, I am not against forms. I think that they have benefits and can sometimes just be fun to do. But I also honestly believe that at this stage of the game there's not much evidence to suggest that forms work is particularly useful in training people for real confrontations and, in fact, I suspect the opposite may be the case.

    You say that these threads are full of "just one opinion followed by another." However, I believe that empirical evidence suggests that if you want to learn to really fight, there are plenty of other activities that will benefit you far more than forms will. In fact, I would that considering what we now know to be the most effective ways to train, the burden of proof now falls on those who keep pushing the practical benefits of kata.

    We've corresponded on other threads and I think you're thoughtful, knowledgeable person. So I would be more than happy to review any studies or evidence that you may have that suggests forms practice helps to develop real fighting skills. At least then I could dispel that feeling of wasting my time I sometimes have when I go Front Stance --> High Block --> Reverse Punch --> Round Kick.
     
  7. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Good point. I'm not arguing against the merits of forms, I'm just arguing that sparring is helpful rather than harmful to one's self defense abilities.

    True, but again, you can only simulate "real deadly" combat. No matter how you do it, there's going to be something that will be different if you ever actually have to fight for your life.

    Great to know you advocate full contact. :cool: I don't exactly see how the method you describe is better than sparring though. I mean, to learn to defend against certain techniques, certainly, but for just learning to react properly and fight under pressure why is sparring a worse option?

     
  8. Llamageddon

    Llamageddon MAP's weird cousin Supporter

    One of the main premises of this thread was that Karate, when it comes down to it, is just like Kickboxing. So karate must be great.

    Generalisations are dangerous. They undermine your argument if you're not careful
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2008
  9. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    ".....
    You say that these threads are full of "just one opinion followed by another." However, I believe that empirical evidence suggests that if you want to learn to really fight, there are plenty of other activities that will benefit you far more than forms will. In fact, I would that considering what we now know to be the most effective ways to train, the burden of proof now falls on those who keep pushing the practical benefits of kata.
    ....."

    Sure there are. How about if everybody trains full-contact until one or the other partner is incapaciated or disabled. All punches are thrown full-power and to any target. All grappling is until the opponent is unconscious or disabled. No gloves; bare knuckles. All techniques are legal. No time limits and no judges.

    Now, how many people are actually going to train this way? You say you want to train for fighting. OK, Let's, but I mean fighting. If people really believe that we must actually fight to learn how to fight, then lets do it. No rules, no compassion and no humanity. Training needs to be without Humanity and with the simple issue of one person triumphing over another as the ultimate goal. This is what you find in the prison system. There's your "empirical evidence". Why don't we all just bust-out a window in the nearest police car and do some time? That way you can just thumb you nose at inconveniences like forms, heritage, history, culture and the rest.

    But you're not about to do that, are you. You're not going to do that because its easier to talk about real fighting than it is to actually do such things. But my own question stands. Why even pretend that any of this is about "martial arts" or anything noble.

    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2008
  11. shadow_priest_x

    shadow_priest_x Moved on

    Okay, now you're just being silly and it's starting to sound like an issue of sour grapes. What I was directly addressing was the practice of forms and their practical applications toward fighting. Not their theoretical applications . . . but whether all that theory really turns into an increased ability to handle oneself in a real confrontation.

    When I say there are better ways to train for a fight, you go overboard act like the only alternative to forms is full-contact, balls-to-the-wall, gouging-each-others-eyes-out kind of training. How about bag work? Forcus mits? Cardio training and, yes, sparring, though that doesn't have to mean a no-rules style of barbarism.

    I think there are lots of benefits to TMA and in fact all of my formal training comes in the form of TKD and Judo. I'm not doing anything right now but have my eye on a local FC karate school.

    If you want to discuss the benefits of culture, heritage, and tradition then we can do that. But these things don't have anything to do with being a more skilled combatant which is what we're talking about.

    You ask, "Why even pretend that any of this is about 'martial arts' or anything noble?" I say that martial arts is EXACTLY what this is about. Don't forget that first and foremost the martial arts were developed to be effective systems of combat. If they fail there, then they've simply failed.
     
  12. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Ouch, Bruce, that's not a training methodology you should really be recommending! ;) Like I said earlier, I believe the best plan is to simulate real combat.

    TKDMitch, you're latest post clarifies things a bit better for me. It originally sounded like you were arguing against all sparing, whereas more accurately you're arguing against sparring in just one range? I see your point, but isn't it a good idea to limit your sparring occasionally, so you can work specifically on that range(s)? Of course, it is definitely a good idea to balance this with MMA type sparring and plug up your weaknesses rather than always just working the one range.

    Kwan Jang, you are right. If all you ever did was overpower people they would learn nothing. I argue this as well when people complain about the "non resistant" training part of aikido; you must first learn a technique with a non resisting and helpful partner before you can apply it on someone who is doing his best to mess up your technique and stop you from getting it on him. But after the technique has been learned well, then it is beneficial to learn to apply it against a resisting partner, including someone bigger/stronger than yourself.
     
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yes yes yes yes .....I have heard all of this crap before. It never changes. I probably could have written you response before YOU did.

    Tell you what, how about if I see you in about a month (or the month after that, or the month after that...) when another ditz starts yet one more of these "kata are worthless"-threads. That way the MMA folks among us can continue to have opportunities to regularly suggest that they have somehow located the much-sought-after short-cut to combat primacy. Thats all this is about, afterall. The shill asks the leading question and the community uses the opportunity to tout their wares.
     
  14. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Sorry, Spinmaster, but the loophole in your statement is "simulate".

    WHO decides what simulation has the greatest veracity. Whose POV is one to use?

    As I said before I have been around this tree more times than I care to remember and we will go around it again and again. Its the same crap as in swordwork where people argue which method is more effective, thrusting or slashing. Its same thing in Western Boxing where people still argue about "The Long Count" and whether the "slugger" or the "technician" is the better fighter. If I wanted this sort of meaningless banter I could always go down to the local bar and listen to drunks bitch about which team is superior-- the Chicago Bears or the Greenbay Packers? This is absolutely mindless.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Please try to see it from my POV, paciFist. Please.

    I have over 20 years in the Hapkido arts and some 30 years or so in the MA. There was a time before the INTERNET when it would have been extraordinary to have people get together and talk about MA. Well and good.

    Now imagine my concern when I see that the best we can do with this venue is to ask the same empty-something-house questions and go over the same barren ground time and again. Wouldn't you think that somewhere along the line we would begin to raise the bar a bit? In the case of this thread couldn't we have simply told the TS to use the search function for past discussion? C'mon fer krise-sake. Is this the best use one can make of this?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2008
  17. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2008
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Sound post and sentiments.

    I don't normally find effective Kata application a problem. :hat:

    If you're wondering how I take that small person or wimp up to that level - it's through progressive training and contact. I also use top to toe body armour that still alows mobility.

    I personally don't use the shock knife for two reasons. Firstly it is illegal in the UK as an offensive weapon, and secondly given the things I've seen happen with rubber knives in full on attack scenarios, I don't trust anything more solid. :)
     
  19. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Is this in response to me? I'm just after an intelligent discussion here, Bruce. Not intending to come across as a know-it-all or anything of the sort. I understand your frustration (well, as best I can without actually experiencing the same frustration :D) but I honestly don't think this thread has degenerated into another "mma vs. forms" thread.
     
  20. Spinmaster

    Spinmaster Valued Member

    Of course, some things will always be subjective or will depend on the person.

    I dunno, I've found it interesting that some advocates of full contact training don't necessarily utilize sparring, so the discussion hasn't been completely wasted. :)
     

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