Training with a friend of mine the other day he remarked,''Karate when you get to the bones of it is just Kickboxing without all the Katas''. He got me thinking maybe he has a point, what do you think.
I think that statement shows that he has no clue as to what either classical or traditional karate are.
Nonononononononononononononono! Kickboxing is a tiny subset of the techniques contained in karate, applied within a very limiting ruleset. Mitch
That would depend on the rules Much sparring (as commonly practiced in many karate styles) is that subset of techniques, so yes, it would look a lot like kickboxing. The reality of karate though is that it should be using sweeps, throws, locks, basic grappling and all in a self-defence setting. Sparring (as it is commonly practiced) is a tiny and largely irrelevant (and largely damaging IMO) part of what karate is. Remember: sparring is NOT fighting, sparring is NOT karate. Mitch
Sparring (as it is commonly practiced) is a tiny and largely irrelevant (and largely damaging IMO) part of what karate is. Why damaging?
Exactly. It turns attention away from what karate training is really about and focusses it on a ring sport with little relevance to self defence. It teaches practicioners how to use the wrong techniques in the wrong way at the wrong range and under the wrong circumstances for self defence. It degenerates karate into kickboxing; a sanitised, sportified, satin-trousered spectacle instead of a practical form of self defence. IMO of course Mitch
Mitch and jwt, it almost sounds like you're using the "my art is 2 d3adly for teh ring" argument. If you spar full contact, you'll get used to using techniques under pressure, rather than just freaking out and forgetting everything because of the adrenaline rush, etc. You call kickboxing a "sanitised, sportified, satin-trousered spectacle instead of a practical form of self defence" and say that "The reality of karate though is that it should be using sweeps, throws, locks, basic grappling and all in a self-defence setting". First of all, full contact kickboxing at least gives you a set of tools that you're good at (hopefully) rather than just a bunch of "self defense" techniques that you've practiced in a cozy dojo with a compliant partner. I know I'd be a lot more careful going up against somebody like a boxer who fights hard with what he knows than a karate person who supposedly has so many "self defense options" but hasn't sparred with them. Secondly, "sweeps, throws, locks, and basic grappling" are all included in MMA matches. Why are these suddenly not valid when put in a ring/octagon? If you can do a sweep or lock on somebody in the ring, you have a good chance of being able to do it on somebody on the streets. As somebody said mentioned in the thread about how JKD differs from MMA, you can only simulate "real" deadly combat no matter what you do. Full contact training provides the closest simulation available, and part of that training is sparring against somebody who is really trying to hurt you (though not as bad as somebody on the streets, obviously).
Spinmaster: If you hadn't said it, I would've had to. Show me a kickboxer who's studied Judo and I'll show you a fighter who will be able to handle most situations on the street. One thing to keep in mind is that many of the early kickboxers--such as Chuck Norris, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis--came from karate backgrounds. I wasn't around at the time, but I believe American kickboxing may have even been simply called "full-contact karate" in the early days and the early governing bodies were karate organizations, i.e. the Professional Karate Association and International Sports Karate Association. I've often said karate or TKD, when trained effectively, is going to look a lot like kickboxing. Why? Because in a real fight you're really not gonna want to throw reverse punches from the horse stance.
Not at all. What I am saying is that the ring is a different arena to self defence. There are overlaps between the two. A crucial point though is that the majority of Karate techniques in Kata deal with close range strikes, unbalancing and trapping - usually against someone who has just started an attack at close range or is just about to attack. That physical position is not replicated so often in competition matches where both people are trained fighters expecting the other. Even in MMA the fight pattern is influenced by the fact that both fighters 'know' the other and have a particular set of expectations - that and the ruleset determines tactics and techniques. I am a firm advocate of full contact training. But full contact training does not have to be sparring and neither does dynamic or alive training. For self defence I ask one or more people to be someone else , forget their training, and go in with particular combinations of techniques (eg pushes, haymakers, headbutts, knife slashes) until the other person takes them down (or gives in - but I train people to carry on until they 'win' no matter how many times they have been hit). Well Mitch's words rather than my own. I can see his point though. Kickboxing tends to take the long range Karate techniques that are better for a toe to toe match (such as being called out) rather than the close quarter techniques. It then has a rule set that sanitises the fighting and a dress code that makes it flashy. That does not mean that it cannot be effective for self defence - but it is better for the type of long range encounter that it is designed for. You can get good at your self defence tools as well. And you do not have to practice them with a compliant parter if you have the equipment or conditioning. I have a great deal of respect for boxers. The thread was not asking whcih was better, it was asking for the difference. Pressure testing is king. It's not so much a question of not being valid, and again this isn't the original question we were dealing with. This isn't a 'my art is the daddy' thread and I don't think anyone wants it to be. The 'daddy' is self belief, confidence, resolve and a training regime that allows you to access what you need when you need it. With regard to your question not everyone can transfer ring to street or visa versa because of the different build up (psychological, physical and verbal). The Flight or Fight thread raised this the other day. I agree with you on the need to train against someone who is really trying to hit you as hard as they can, and hitting them back as hard as you can - I just don't do it in the form of sparring.
technically prowla, the op was written in reverse, so a more appropriate analogy would be, kickboxing is like boxing without the kicks . on topic, simply taking into account the personal, "spiritual" side of karate training, and the matters of etiquette and "cultural· traditions, the original statement, if stated correctly, becomes moot. if the op's friend indeed meant it the way he said it, well, unless he meant it as "karate is like kb, once you take out the katas", then it's even more incorrect gotta run, cheers
