Kata, Form, Poomse Question

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Haste, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. Haste

    Haste Scream

    I'll be straight and sharp; Do you think that Kata, Form, Poomse, or whatever else they may be called is a load of crap, or a genuine martial arts tool for bettering your skills?

    -Haste
     
  2. Pyongandowon

    Pyongandowon New Member

    Every Kata you do, every Form has moves from your martial art. Practicing them in sequence, and practicing making every move correctly is vital to mastering said art.
     
  3. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think they are a genuine martial arts tool but possibly not the best one.
     
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    They are a genuine martial arts tool for bettering your skills.

    The issue is the use of the tools. There is no point in having the best multi-tool in the world if you don't actually have anything to use it on, haven't been shown how to use it, and have no reason to use it.
     
  5. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Though I'm tempted to write an essay on the subject, I'll try to keep it brief:

    Forms may serve a useful purpose. If nothing else they seem to be a catalogue of techniques.

    The way they are usually taught, though, doesn't lead to optimum results, in my oppinion.
     
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    *Uses merge-o-tron to combine John and Fuzzy into the ultimate source of all martial arts knowledge*

    I agree with what they said
     
  7. bigreddog

    bigreddog Valued Member

    Yes - but the components should be clearly broken down into real, proven self defence moves
     
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    In my opinion, forms are a very valuable way of learning good body mechanics and good form. They are not, however, the only way to learn good body mechanics and good form.

    Good body mechanics and good form are important for making a good fighter. However, training in those alone will never make you a good fighter.

    Thus, in terms of making an effective fighter, I would say that they are a useful ingredient, but not a necessary ingredient, and that they certainly cannot replace the two necessary ingredients of (1) free sparring against a resisting opponent and (2) conditioning. I really do believe that they can enhance those two necessary ingredients, though.

    All that said, I really enjoy forms practice and I feel that I get a lot out of it.
     
  9. locust

    locust Like a biblical plague

    this is a bit tricky the fighter in me wants to say they are usless but the martial artist in me says they are important for a number of reasons not least the meditive aspect of flowing through each movement and developing that mental focus that alows you to find your center, sounds corny i know but thats just me ,plus there is the muscle memory that comes from the reperition
     
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    The short answer is "yes" forms are a great way to train and are widely used. The "catch" is that a person needs to know HOW to use them within the context of their training. This is no different than using Weight Training, Aerobic Training, Anaerobic Training, Sparring or any other aspect of learning. A tool is just a tool. Where a person does not know how to use a tool there is always the potential for more harm than good.

    For myself, I am a traditionalist and forms are a significant part of training. I must report, though, that I have run into only a VERY few teachers who honestly know how to coach their students through the use of forms. The result is that while a person can do forms over and over again, they are getting only a very small part of the possible benefit for their use. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. Hogstooth

    Hogstooth Valued Member

    Kata is very important to the arts. It contains the essence of the style or system you are learning. When you get to higher levels and start to explore the hidden meaning in the moves and bunkai it all starts to make sense and can make you a better MAist. They also train the bodies muscle memory, increase flexibility and leg strength and it is a great way to train the basics without being in a stance and throwing the same technique over and over. It is the face of your style. It is what seperates your style from others. Each system has it's own kata or a different variation of the same katas. Karate without kata is not Karate. Period.
     
  12. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Good for building fighting skills? No.

    Good for artistic purposes, or preserving traditions? Yes.
     
  13. blindgod

    blindgod Valued Member

    I think that forms serve two functions:

    1. They act as a syllabus for a martial art that uses them.

    2. They can act as a method to practice when you don't have access to a teacher, equipment, or training partners. I've trained with a number of people who've travelled quite a bit because of their jobs and many said that the forms gave them something concrete to work on while in their hotel rooms.

    Whether or not they're the best way to train on your own is another matter.
     
  14. Marnet

    Marnet Banned Banned

    If you don't understand the kata then it's useless.

    I see too many people these days doing kata by just going through the motions and without asking why they are doing said motions. Kata are tools if you know how to use them.
     
  15. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned


    Absolutely. We can keep talking about the role that forms play in the training of Martial artisits but it is impossible to get people to appreciate what an asset these practices are if they have set their training against the use of such things. As far as I know, noone criticizes people for bag work, sparring, good diet or conditioning. But somehow, when it comes to the matter of Forms, everybody is an authority on whether or not Forms should be used. What I have found is that most of the critics of form work are actually rather poorly advised as to how to use forms or understand their role in training.

    To my mind that seems to make discussions such as this rather pointless. IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  16. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    A fighter can't get away with ignoring bag/pad work, sparring, diet, or conditioning. Same can't be said of forms. That's not to say there's NOTHING you can get from forms, but most of the benefits you can get from them, you can get from other solo exercises that are more efficient at achieving those benefits. It is an archaic training method that IMO should only be kept around for preserving traditions - like a wai kru or something.

    And what I have found is that most of the critics of abandoning form work are actually so completely and blindly devoted to tradition that they forget that systemized fighting evolves and that the practitioner must evolve as well.
     
  17. Saint_deshi

    Saint_deshi Valued Member

    Kata are still misunderstood by 99% of MA practitioners, and this is why they are so often slated.

    To understand tham you need to take them out of martial arts, and look at kata in other areas of sport and other activities. Once you do that you realise that they are there as an important tool.

    For example...

    When learning a musical instrument, people have learned scales for as long as records show. This is not because they want to learn how to play them, but because they teach the basic building blocks of the skill set required for playing instruments. Scales can also teach the relationships between notes and how they can fit together. They are the kata of music.

    When learning to multiply in maths we are taught "times tables", not so that we can recite the whole thing whenever we want, but so that we know how to do basic multiplication without having to stop, think, do a calculation, and then come up with the answer. Again, within them we learn the relationships between numbers. These are the kata of maths.

    When writing as children we learn to make patterns with our pen/pencil that look like lots of joind up "S"s. We'll never need to write them, but it teaches us the very basic skill of controlling the pen. A skill that we then develop into handwriting. These loops, and other patterns are the kata of writing.

    In football (soccer to our friends across the big lake) we learn to bounce the ball on our foot, head etc withou letting it hit the ground...... will you ever need to do this 50 times in a match?! Of course what this teaches us is control, co-ordination etc..... You can guess what I'm going to say..... This is simply one of the kata of soccer.

    There are examples all over the place if we look hard enough, and they demonstrate that kata are important, and that the biggest problem with them is that people don't understand them (instructors included - which is shocking in my opinion).

    I never used to understand why I did kata, but I was a good student and I did what I was told (well...... kinda.....), but in recent years I have seen in other parts of my training where kata are useful, and I have gone back to some of my earliest kata, to re-learn things that I now realise I have a use for.

    Now, I will always use them (in conjunction with other things) to teach.

    Saint_Deshi
     
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Good post, Saint_deshi. The comparison between forms in martial arts and scales in the musical arts was something I never thought of before, but actually makes a lot of sense. A scale is something you never actually play when you're "playing music for real," but is instead a formalized, repetitive exercise used to build the skills and understanding that allow you to "play music for real" better.

    At the same time, scales are not absolutely necessary. I'm sure there are plenty of accomplished musicians who never spent hours working on scales. However, the fact that scales are not absolutely necessary to become a brilliant musician does NOT mean that they are a useless and archaic teaching tool.
     
  19. Saint_deshi

    Saint_deshi Valued Member

    Thanks Mitlov.

    One musician friend of mine has just read my post and said ..." Does that mean that Grand Masters of arts effeectively Fight Jazz!".

    I love the analogy!!!

    Saint_Deshi
     
  20. blindgod

    blindgod Valued Member

    The music/scales analogy is problematic. When one goes from practicing a note during scales to playing that same note as part of a larger musical piece, the fingering does not change. The muscle memory built by doing the scales carries over directly into regular playing.

    With forms, however, one might practice a punch or a block using a certain stance with the other fist on the belt. However, when that same person tries to use that same punch or block during sparring, they will often be told NOT to use the same stance and position of the other hand as they would in the form. Practicing the form will have built up muscle memory for doing something in a way that's not ideal.
     

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