"Kata" - an amateur's perspective

Because he is one of the best reality instructors in the world. He revolutionalised MArtial Arts in the UK. If he advocates it - its got to be seriously useful - he's not the only one, Vince Morris, Stan Smidt, Norman Robinson, Aidan Trimble, Peter Consterdine, all leaders in their field!

Easy:

Essentially kata is a multi-tool which has the following benefits:

1. Conditioning. Repetition of kata aids in conditioning the karateka by doing movements that are related to martial arts. Doing long kata like kanku-dai will give you the amount of endurance you need to fight. The pace of the kata can be modified to your fitness requirements, this is why kata can be challenging to teenagers as well as people in their seventies. You can build endurance by running etc, but they don't actually directly develop fighting techniques.
2. Helps you remember technique. While shadow boxing can be good for this, the problem is that people tend to only do a limited repetoire. Practise one form and you practise a very wide range of techniques.
3. Tactical development. Kata were not haphazardly put together. They provide various levels of tactical usage that go beyond basic applications. They teach you what you can do if techniques go wrong. Proper bunkai helps the karateka appreciate tactics.
4. Develop a personal style. Different kata have different 'mannerisms', defensive, aggresive etc, which a karateka can draw on by 'modelling' the timing etc of the kata.

Now individually you might find training methods that can replace some of these aspects, but NONE of them (except for sparring of course) can do ALL of them at the same time. Kata is a multi-tool that enables you to make very efficient use of your limited personal training time. What will take an hour combining everything else can be done in half an hour with kata. Also kata are easy to train virtually anywhere anytime, they can be adapted for training by young and old.

Check out any work by top karateka like Geoff Thompson, Ian Abernathey etc. I'd like you to tell me exactly which applications you think "won't work".

 

Of course it matters how you get there. I could train what to do after i get punched in the face but wouldnt I better suited to also train how not to get punched in the face? If i assume that every fight is going to go to the ground then i avoid training all of my standing techniques all i am doing is trading one weaknesss for another. Hasnt anybody else seen the tuite and kyushu applications in Kata? If there is no purpose to Kata then why are they part of the Martial arts? With all of the improvemnets to every other sport over time why are schools holding on to Bad Technique? In the woirld of MMA and mixed style fighters if kata is just a waste of time then why are they still taught? Or are you all saying that you are all smarter and know more than the founders of the stlye you train in?

 

Gyaku, how Geoff et al train doesn't matter to me. Unless someone comes up with a reason for doing kata that isn't already covered by other training methods (which do so more effectively...) then kata is unnecessary.

Kata has very little benefit in all of the things you just wrote.


Kata, even when done hard, is not as tiring as sparring, grappling, or activities specifically done for conditioning. Of course running doesn't develop fighting techniques, but it can be infinitely more beneficial than kata as a tool for conditioning. Besides, you should try to run before you fight. Just think of it as practice.

Remembering techniques is not a problem for most people. I don't know why karate-ka can't remember their techniques, but boxers, thai boxers, wrestlers, sub grapplers, etc. have no problem.

I completely disagree with your third statement. Kata does NOT, in any way, prepare you to continue fighting if something goes wrong. Kata is like X, Y, Z. A fight isn't. In a fight, anything can happen. The only way you're going to get used to responding to what an opponent does is through fighting or sparring.

The last one you mentioned made me laugh. How does kata develop your own personal style? This is from one of my other posts (which I doubt you read):

Kata forces everyone to be exactly the same. Of course there will be small differences (because of height, flexiblity, etc.), but they are all trying to do the same things in the same order. Shadowboxing allows you to do whatever you want (or need to work on ).

As I explained above, kata has very little to no benefit for those things you listed.

I'm sorry but I think this statement is hilarious. Sure, let's stop all other training methods and do kata because it achieves the same results in half the time!

 

It's also a towering symbol of shoddy services, like McDojos.

Yes but sparring using them will make you a better fighter than katas will becase you get to actually use them on someone who is resisting.

Oh, and Jang Bong, by the way...my point was not that the stuff is 'unwieldy and robotic', but that it is done to the air.

 

Says Who???

Timmy Boy told me that boxers only know 4 punchs - I'd be worried if they forgot them. (I know - there are more techniques than just 4 punches ) I can't speak with any authority on the other styles you mention, but the argument of some who don't like learning kata is to reduce the numbers of techniques - that has got to hack into the body of any art.

Not to BE the same, but to LEARN and PRACTICE the same.

I don't think you explained - you simply stated it as fact.

To pick up on one of your points "Kata is like X, Y, Z." - this implys that if you knew my kata (which you wouldn't without learning it ), and you forced me into a position of X, then you would know what I was going to do next.... Wrong!!!

Counting some major move (low block for instance) as A, then one kata will give me A,B,C - another one you learn will give me A,E,F - and the one you haven't learned could give you A,P,A,I,N.

Back to the 'either' / 'or' - we say that all the methods do their part, you say that all methods except kata contribue. The onus is therefor on you to demonstrate how you can get an equivilent weeks worth of assisted (class) and unassited (home) training in an art that traditionally uses kata without using it - and how you would demonstrate that everything had been learned.

 

See my previous post for explanation.

Go pick up a copy of "Winning Wrestling Moves". Most wrestlers I know remember nearly every technique in that book, as well as others that aren't in there... I remember nearly all of it after only two months of training in wrestling.

What point are you trying to make? If you're trying to say you aren't going to fight with your techniques in the same order as a certain kata, then I completely agree. Now why train that way?

I never said it doesn't help at all. I've been saying the entire time that the only benefits kata has can be improved more by from doing other training. I see no purpose to incorporate kata into my training.

It's not that hard. You can spar, do bagwork, padwork, shadowboxing, etc. Everything except for sparring, padwork, and drilling with partners can be done at home...

The main way of course would be sparring, but the instructor could just ask you demonstrate a technique.

 

No, you are very wrong. Again please have a look at any work by Geoff Thompson etc. In many Habitual Acts of Violence (HOAV's) certain aspects regurlarly go wrong. For instance in Kanku Dai there is a takedown, this is immidieatly followed by a technique to deal with it going wrong, ie i someone then attempts to choke you, this counter attempt is very common. Other kata keep emergency or back up techniques at the beginning or end of each kata. To be honest I think you know very little about kata and bunkai, in future can you source any further comments you make regarding this.

As we've said over and over again, we don't think that kata should replace sparring, kata consolidates what you have learnt in sparring, not the otherway around.

I agree, partner work is very good, but it just isn't practical to many people. Many of us have businesses to run, families to look after... We're not all lazy, lay-about students

You never ever fight in the order that you train. Whether you do bagwork or even shadowboxing you can never really predict how an opponant will act, you can only train the most probable ways. Which is what kata does. Again, please use actual examples to show me where I'm wrong. Can you name any traditional kata that don't have emergency techniques?

True, but historically wrestlers lost loads of techniques. That is why in early UFC comps they got their asses handed to them by the Gracies, because they didn't know how to apply or counter any submissions. The same applies to boxing, it used to include grappling and low kicks. The 'memory' I am talking about isn't just about individuals but as whole disciplines. Our disagreement here could be a misunderstanding.

This is a load of nonsense. Look at Taebo, its basically kata to music, and guess what - its an excellent form of conditioning! I would love to see you do Kanku-dai for half and hour and not feel like you've got a good work-out. Again, I think your knowledge of kata is poor, can you give specific examples that kata is a poor method of conditioning.

It should matter to you, he is a very able fighter. One way of becoming a better fighter is to look at how people who are better than you train.

Here is what Geoff has to say about kata and karate:

Now, it may be that it doesn't suit you, thats ok. But it does suit me and hundreds of thousands of others. I have trained in karate for over 15 years. I am a very competant fighter. I am at home on the floor, on my feet. I am at home against a boxer, a judoka and wrestlers. Kata is a big part of my training because it works, its one of the things that have made me a good fighter. Why? Because it consolidates all the lessons I've learnt from 15 years of hard sparring.

I also teach karate, and my students gain incredible benefit from kata. It makes them better fighters. Why? Because it consolidates what they've learnt through hours of hard sweaty sparring. Shadowboxing, running etc just can't do it that well, not as efficiently as kata.

Sparring is the most effective mthod of training. We can all agree on that.
However we all want to complement this outside the dojo. We want to practise our technique, consolidate previous knowledge and maintain fitness levels. Kata does all of this at the same time. NO OTHER one method of training can do this. You would have to spend twice as much time using other training methods to achieve the same results. Do the maths if you think I'm wrong.

 

Pankration90, you keep saying that x or y is better than kata with no proof whatsoever. these guys have been quoting different and very skilled killers that do loads of kata. they back up their arguements over and over.

where is your proof? an example:

can you prove this kind of statement? no

bottom line is: you have no proof, and therefore no arguement!

 

err ever heard of people like Coban, Bas Rutten, Mark Hunt... these people dont do kata yet there are verified reports of them laying the smack down outside the ring.

 

Gyaku, that is still not preparing you to deal with mistakes you make in a fight. What if that moves fail and next one from the kata isn't possible? In a fight you aren't going to be doing those moves in the same order. Why not just spar to get used to continuing the fight after you mess up?

I never accused you of replacing everything else with kata. The fact that it does not replace any of your other training and after all this you still can't come up with a reasonable purpose for myself and others to spend time on it shows that it is not necessary by any means and has very little benefit.

If you have time to practice kata at home, you have time to do other things...

Exactly. In your own words, "you never ever fight in the order that you train". So why do you train in a specific order? You're contradicting yourself.

This has been addressed already. They lost techniques because of the RULES of the sports they trained in, not because they didn't do kata. Again, if the goalee in soccer/football wasn't allowed to catch the ball with his hands, why would he keep practicing that? Most sensible players would only practice things that benefit them in the sport they compete in.

Try doing 30 seconds full sprints with 10 seconds of jogging between each for half an hour and then tell me kata is the best way to train conditioning.

Why aren't you a bouncer, then? After all you idolize Geoff and he was a bouncer. I bet his ability has more to do with being a bouncer than with kata...

Also, there are plenty of great fighters who don't do kata. That argument is weak.

There is no mention of kata anywhere in that quote...

I could go hit the heavy bag for half an hour and have twice the benefit on technique (due to the fact that I'm actually hitting a solid object so it forces me to strike correctly), conditioning (look up 'punch out' drills on Ross Enamait's website), etc.

lol go to your local wrestling team and ask them to demonstrate those techniques for you... I only wrestled for two months and I can show people nearly everything in there. After you've had to defend against those things during live drills and sparring/rolling you remember both how to do them and how to counter them pretty well.

 

How is that logical...in sparring you learn to react to someone else's attacks/movements, in kata you are just training to put on a display. In sparring I might learn how to see a kick coming, exactly when to react when someone is attacking so I can catch them when they're leaving themselves open...I cannot imagine this happening in a kata. I would be more likely to learn to put my hands in an exact position so it looks good for a judge.

 

Your first statement

Your next statement

You claim not to, but you contradict yourself.

We train in the most likely order, most martial arts do this. We use techniques that are proven to go together most frequently. you can never ever be sure how a fight will go, but we now that certain situations are very likely. Tons of research has been done on this, please refer to anything by Bill Burger, Patrick McCarthy etc.

Kata should not be about what looks good. If thats the way your dojo trains take responsibility for your training and go somewhere else. Fighting isn't just about how you react to someone. (of course that is why we do sparring) Its about strategy and timing of technique. If you take gojushiho for instance, it shows you the correct timing within techniques, it shows you how to vary timing 'within' the technique. It makes the attack very hard to counter, as you it becomes difficult to judge when its going to land.

My fault there...He is refering directly to kata, check out his website if you think I've got it wrong...Its just bad nettiquete to cut and paste the whole article onto the forum.

Of course! The point of this thread is whether kata can be effective as a training tool. Certainly for some people kata isn't as helpful, but for many of us it is very useful - thats the point we're trying to make! There are many ways to skin a cat.

Hey the punchbag is your friend. I love my punchbag. I spend about 2 hours a week wacking the daylights out of it. But there are loads of grappling techniques I can't practise on it. Kata practises everything - and although I love my punching bag, I can't always take it with me when I travel etc.

Cool, but what if I only have that 30 minutes to train in. If I follow your advise I wouldn't have worked on any technique - where do I fit all the other drills you keep going on about. No, kata is just a very practical way to maintain fitness and core technique at the same time.

Actually it was through his being a bouncer that he realised the practical nature of kata, he realised kata wasn't just theory, it was about using very nasty technique. As for me being a bouncer, well no thanks, I make loads more money than a bouncer. Again, checkout his website.

 

Proof of these verified reports?

The onus is on YOU to prove your points, not everone else. Nothing in the above statement proves that you can do all the moves in the book. It just suggests that you've read a book on wretsling. You still have no proof, therefore no arguement. If you say something you need to back it up!

By the same logic your arguement is also weak! If they can't use a verifiable example then nether can you, which kind of means you can say whatever you want without backing anything up! Pancration90 I can see right through your tactic. Stop hiding your lack of proof.

The bottom line boys is: wheres the proof?

 

Damn, yeah, that's what I was trying to describe.

How can you time when to land your attack when you are just doing it to thin air? You have nothing to judge by, nothing to react to.

How the heck can you apply grappling moves to thin air?

 

Tell me, how do you get grappling from your kata? Oh, by the way, I mean real grappling, as in something you can actually use, not a vaguely arranged set of half-baked throws that have been shoehorned out of striking movements. What's more, grappling techniques, and all fighting techniques, for that matter, do not exist in isolation. You need practical experience in the method of fighting to be able to use it. You can't just stumble your way through a few air movements and expect to get anything useful from it.

My problem with kata is that the movements in it do not resemble anything that karate people actually use in sparring. Therefore, they are worthless.

 

God, KE, how do you do it? Every time an issue like this appears I try to make a point and I do it messily and wordily, then you come along and sum it up perfectly in about 2 words.

I agree 100% with your statement.

Oh and BTW, Gyaku, about your assertion that kata trains a bunch of abilities at the same time? Even if that's true, is it really a good attitude to training? If it's something arduous that you have to invent an all-in-one exercise to get it over with quickly...why do you bother training?

 

As I can't physically demonstrate them to you, I can direct you to other sources, such as Geoff Thompson. I'd be very interested to know what is half baked about his techniques. As for shoehorning, well historically if you look at old karate texts like the Bubishi, grappling was a key feature of karate. A good example is that it advises a takedown in the face of an overwhelming puncher. What is half baked about that? Nothing - Its also an application from Kanku-dai kata. If anything, NOT including grappling would be shoehorning th ekata.

Kata doesn't replace sparring, it should just consolidate what you've alraedy learnt. In that regard I fully agree with you, kata should not be isolated from real fighting. At our club we do loads of sparring, sometimes it looks very similar to a judo class except we incorporate a wider range of locks and throws. Another good reference point for this is Sensei Norman Robinson, he is quite well known for his 'grappling' nights.

I have been doing karate for over fifteen years. I have a passion for it. Unfortunantly life sometimes gets in the way of training time. If you have a deadline at work you can't say to your client - sorry but I've got to go train now, can we move the deadline? When I've got the time, I work on the bag etc etc. Kata also helps me unwind after a stressful time at work!

This is a problematic statement that people often make. The problem has been that rigid semi-contact karate replaced the core skills in many karate schools. As a result poeple no longer paid enough attention to the bunkai.

This aspect has particularly effected UK and US organisations that catered to children and teens. Many other organisations have preserved older, proven techniques. A good example is Norman Robinson of South Africa. He has been teaching grappling techniques as part of karate for over fourty years. I have trained with him and in his late 60s he is extremely good on his feet and the floor. Check out an article he wrote in the 80's before the UFC was even thought about, it outlines some ideas about how throwing is intergarted into karate:
http://www.jks.co.za/mainmnu.php?ida=articles/nr1

When you start adding in more varied attacks like takedowns etc, you start using techniques in a way that is identical to kata. Bunkai were created to deal with hooks, takedowns, grabs, throws etc, not urakens and chudan gyaku zukis.

I understand your problem. The proper timing of techniques should be learnt through pad work and sparring. Kata just consolidates the timing that you have already learnt. Think of it as a manitainance tool, to help you keep your technique when you can't train with a partner or with a bag. The key is to visualise what you're doing.

You visualise it! The Gracies do it as a means of rehearsing some of their techniques. Most sports use visualisation is some way or another - its a well proven performance enhancing training method. Check out any website on visualisation if you're unsure, there are loads.

 

How is that contradicting myself? Those two statements aren't even related. The first was a question, the second was me explaing that I've never said all you do is kata (thus acknowledging that you do spar and do other things).

Even if the sequence of techniques in any given kata is likely (I've seen many that I think don't apply), it is still not going to help you that much when you actually have an opponent. To learn to 'flow' with an opponent and counter him etc. you need an opponent. Simply doing moves in the air will not prepare you for when one of your techniques goes wrong.

Do you seriously think people like Geoff Thompson got where he was because of kata? I doubt it. Like I've said before, he was a bouncer. That's real life experience. He also probably sparred and drilled with partners. Those things help you more than anything done without a partner.

LOL of all the things that can be practiced in the air, grappling is not one of them.

I still think you're kidding yourself about kata's benefit on fitness. If you only have 30 minutes to train in, then you should figure out a schedule to get the most benefit out of your time. Why not start with a vigous warm up of sprints with jogging in between, then move on to the heavy bag etc. for the rest of the work out? The warm up will get your heart going and hitting the heavy bag will keep it up there... no need to spend a half an hour on running.

I've been to his website plenty of times. Nothing there has convinced that kata played a large part in his success as a fighter. There is no opponent to react to. There is nothing spontaneous about it. You control it completely- you can't lose in kata. You can't make mistakes and then have to learn from them.

LMAO! You seriously want me to come to your house and show you some wrestling techniques just to prove that remembering them is easy? I drilled those moves five days a week, two hours a day with a partner for over two months, and practiced stuff at home with other people and by myself. Remembering those techniques is easy. Whether you believe it or not, you don't need a kata to remember how to do stuff.

What part of kata makes it so good for remembering stuff? The repetition of the moves over and over? Guess what, that's what we did every lesson- except we did it with a partner.

It's simple, really. The fighters who use kata also spar, drill etc. so their ability can't solely be attributed to kata. The people who don't do kata just spar, drill, etc. and many of them can fight well. The only way to prove kata is a good way of practicing would be to fight someone's who has only ever done kata. No sparring, no bagwork, no padwork, no drilling, nothing but kata.

Gyaku isn't claiming that all you need is kata, so what I said above doesn't apply to what he's saying. He's saying it is a valuable part of his training time. I feel that I could spend my time more productively.

 

Wow. If that doesn't encapsulate the progress of this thread, I don't know what does.

 

Strange that. The Gracies will go through the grappling movements in the air using visualisation - Which is what we do with kata. In fact most top flight athletes will do this, rugby players, tennis players etc etc. I suppose they're not training properly? I understand your point but, your agruement just doesn't shape up. Check out any book/website on sport psychology. Its a well established training method. Try it - you'll be suprised!

Of course, thats why we spar. Kata just helps to consolidate the various options that you can be faced with - such as if a technique goes wrong. Through visualisation in the kata you also prepare yourself mentally for these possible outcomes. Again this is a well proven performance enhancer.

The best thing for you is to read Animal Day. It basically outlines his ideas about the relevance of kata to reality training. Geoff thompson isn't the only fighter that uses kata. So does Peter Consterdine, Vince Morris, Patrick McCarthy, Iain Abernathy etc etc. The point is that kata IS useful to people who ARE very skilled fighters. These are people that know what kata is about and deem it important enough to continue training in it.

Please don't be offended by my next remarks, but I think I understand your position. From what you've written, it seem syou're still a beginner. At this level you're still developing your core skills.You need loads of partner work to get you up to speed. At your level I don't think kata would be very benificial.
I certainly didn't when I started. However after a while, once you've built your skills, I found kata really useful. It consolidated what I already knew. You're not yet at the consolidation stage. Give it 5 to 10 years and you will be.

What the?? Whats your point? If you think I'm going to keep to some prissy little schedule, all the while having a business to run?? My training time is haphazard at best. And now you want me to schedule my training?? This might be ok for some teenager with loads of spare time - but I work for a living! Man, that is patronising.