Karate punch mechanics vs boxing punch

Discussion in 'Karate' started by KidEspi, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    This is very funny. 300 years ago, Chinese changed Chinese wrestling into "sport". In 21th centry, people spent 30 years to add back the kicking, punching and change it back into combat. May be someday people will add kicking, locking, throwing, and ground game back into boxing.
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Grapplers try to avoid striking. Strikers try to avoid grappling. When a good grappler meets a good striker, who is going to win? I assume whoever had cross trained both will win.
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It's called MMA... :evil:

    Yes, the more balanced overall fighter should have the advantage.

    I think wrestling and striking were both commonly used in fighting/challengers in China into the 1920s. So even after wrestling became a sport, it was still used in real fights.

    A couple things that I could find references to if I need to cite sources... one is that boxers did have to deal with wrestlers, or just grappling in general in fights around the 1920s. Boxers often came out on top... what was the secret? The secret was being a balanced fighter. Balanced being that you had good long ranged punching power/timing to stay out of grappling, the other side is to have good close in fighting that included grappling ability.

    Another note is that in challenges a hundred or more years ago, between the Northern long fist styles in China and the Southern styles, the Northern stylist often came out on top. There longer ranged power gave them an advantage.


    Based on the above:

    A theory is due to specialization, sport, etc. The art of long ranged power striking has become watered down because of neglect. Many just go for the middle ranged power striking power (using torso twisting), combined with clinching and grappling for shorter range. Neglecting the long ranged striking power.

    On the other hand, some that do have good long ranged striking power, and decent middle ranged power, end up not being balanced because they neglect short ranged power striking and grappling.
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    It depends on the system as some karate systems are designed for a longer range and favor what you call "upward surging" and those who concentrate on close-in fighting are more apt to use hip rotation.

    For example, Taira Masaji Sensei is working on close range punches. Notice how he actually does pivot on the ball of the foot.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok&feature=player_detailpage#t=38s"]Taira Sensei Makiwara - YouTube[/ame]
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ah good point.

    Hip rotation is part of the normal karate punches in Goju also. I was emphasizing the first part of the punch, driving the power from the legs/hip into the target (upward surge) like the power from an uppercut, but after this comes power from the back and shoulders (torso power).

    I'm beginning to think FoD's post is really more right on than I first thought. The first part of the karate punch I was taught was hip power (like uppercut punch), the second was back power (like hook punch), and the third part was shoulder power (like overhand punch or when boxers raise the shoulder on any punch such as raising the shoulder with a jab).

    So I'm still thinking that a karate punch being based on uppercuts and hooks turned into straight punches is not a bad comparison between karate and boxing punches.

    By the way, in the case of what Taira Masaji Sensei is demonstrating was taught to me in supplemental training. It was described to me as the "secret second strike" or in other words, you had your normal karate punch to close the gap and then this second strike to penetrate by engaging the power from the shoulder. At close range it could be just this second strike that is used as your arm could already be extended and in range to hit.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  6. KidEspi

    KidEspi New Member

    How would you describe isshinryu punch mechanics, are they the same as other karate styles?
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well, good question. I've never trained in Isshinryu karate even though the Tacoma dojo is just 30 miles from me.

    I do have the book, "Isshinryu Karate" by Steve Armstrong as told to Jay Alevizon, @DLAW Publication 1984.

    On page 37, it says:

    "Relentless in his pursuit of martial excellence, Tatsuo believed that change of technique equated improved technique. He refused to alter the techniques of his revered teachers on whim. When he modified an established technique of kata or kumite to fit the specifications of his Isshinryu, he knew why he was remolding, what was lost and what was gained. He changed techniques of kata or kumite only when a clear improvement resulted from his innovation."

    The above would indicate that Isshinryu techniques could differ from other branches of karate, that Tatsuo Shimabuku Sensei had purposely and carefully made modifications. For instance, the vertical fist is prevailent in Isshinryu for punches.

    However, I would say that the Isshinryu punches use the same mechanics as other karate punches such as from Goju-ryu but they have been modified. For example, in the video demonstrating the three punches that make up a reverse punch (uppercut, vertical fist punch, horizontal fist punch), you could say that the Isshinryu reverse punch just uses the first two (uppercut and vertical fist punch) and does not use the last horizontal fist punch component.

    Why would they punch like this? I think part of the reason has to do with this principle mentioned many times in the book: "The body should be able to change directions at any time," Shimabuku had said. By going by this principle, it makes sense to remove added movements that might involve leaning or over rotation because these movements would limit the body's ability to change direction at any time.

    If you look at the Isshinryu reverse punch, to hit with the two big knuckles, the hand actually is not a vertical fist but a 1/4 rotated fist more than vertical. (fyi: I call this the 3/4 rotated fist but that might be confusing terminology... so just say 1/4 turn more than vertical.)

    The 1/4 turn more than vertical is a very strong body structure. It is how many karateka and boxers hit with power cross/reverse punches to avoid self-injury. You still get the power from the back and some power from the shoulders.

    When you go further and add in more rotation of the fist, this can add in a lean into the punch as well as more power from the shoulder, and add more range to your punch... However, this extra movement for power and range has two known problems. One is that the body structure is not as aligned (more chance of self-injury if you hit something solid) and if you miss you can end up over commited and not able to change direction quickly. For these very reasons, these extra movements could have been removed from Isshinryu reverse punch.

    Many karateka actually end up hitting with the 1/4 turned more than vertical fist instead of a full horizontal fist. They feel it is more powerful because the body structure is safer so you can hit harder without injury. After all, what good is hitting even more hard if you end up breaking your hand or injurying your shoulder with the punch?

    Hence the last part of the karate reverse punch where the shoulder power is added is like a second strike, done after the first punch penetrates defenses, this second strike penetrates into the target (such as into the heart). Like the twisting of a knife blade inside the enemy.

    Also, in boxing you have gloves and wraps to help keep you from being injured, so you can get away with adding more power into a punch, IME. Many things such as the rotation of the fist to horizontal are not preferred in bare knuckle boxing.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2012
  8. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    as i was trying to say before the server went derp on us:

  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    How does this sound to you?

    The rotation that happens before the punch hits can add power to the punch but structurally may require a lean into the punch.

    The rotation that happens after the punch hits is like a second strike (another short penetrating hit after the first strike).

    The rotation that happens during contact is for ripping open.

    So rotation before is very powerful like overhand right, but may lack good structure and end up injurying self with too hard a hit.

    Rotation after requires training in two separate strikes, one that hits 3/4 fist rotation, and another than hits horizonal or more rotation.

    Rotation during the impact is not for power hits as it will rip up your knuckles.
  10. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    agreed. trying to force your fist to actively rotate (as opposed to issuing power in a spiraling motion, cf difference between postural muscle activation on impact and actually assuming a sanchin-like straight back) will likely just create a lot of friction, and skin tends to not like friction. for actually hitting with a horizontal fist, i like the bei shaolin way, which is more like a long range one-inch punch (particularly with iron palm training, which i didn't get to do :().
  11. marcwagz

    marcwagz New Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flhl5f1XxzI"]TOM HILLS DOJO - GOJU RYU - PUNCHING - SIMPLE JAB (KIZAMI TSUKI) - YouTube[/ame]
    goju ryu jab looks very similar to boxing jab
  12. robert346

    robert346 New Member

    hi all .on the comparison between a boxing punch and a karate punch .i believe the mechanics are basically the same with power being generated from the ground up with the upper body staying relaxed allowing for the punch or strike to be released rather than thrown.The main difference is the way the mechanics are then practiced .Boxers practice punching while moving forward backwards to each side while ducking and slipping punchs and of course while they themselves are being punched all of this at a tempo that would leave any but the very fit out of breath in a very short space of time.Most karate practitioners do most of their punching practice in a stationary position or in a linear stop start type of fashion .These are the main reasons why most karate people myself very much included have found ourselves out of our depth when taking up boxing.

Share This Page