Karate punch mechanics vs boxing punch

So we kind of are talking passed each other maybe.

Very specifically, you cannot use the falling step without being on the ball of the non-stepping foot. The mere fact that in karate they keep the heel to the floor means it is not a falling step.

Having said the above, however, I will say that some of the concepts of the falling step are in what you describe, it is just missing some important details, IMHO. To me what you describe is just a weight shift with a big step, which is not bad, but I call it a weight shift with step instead of a falling or trigger step.

I could be just not seeing it right though.

In this video there are many examples of using a falling step, but there is other footwork involved also.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-myBW-ubCiU&f"]Kendo 9th Dan Keiko - YouTube[/ame]

Very first attack at around 1:54 in the video uses a falling step. However, there is also a bit of a push off of the rear foot indicating a weight shift, so it is not a perfect example of a falling step. It still a very good example however.

Notice heel of rear foot is not touching the floor.

 

sorry guys, fell asleep

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZyalFon6QI"]krotty punch herp derp - YouTube[/ame]

you'll need to turn the sound up a bit since i don't like speaking to cameras and microphones and tend to default to speaking in a low volume. also i ramble a LOT. do note that i derped at some points, although i correct myself when i notice, and my half-assed imitations of boxing punches are goddamn awful.

 

Sounds like it could be a falling step, but in

"For example, in the Taira lineage kobudo that I practice, the basic overhead strike (jodan uchi) originates from a high cat stance (neko-ashi dachi) and is completed in rooted stance (suegoshi dachi). From the initial position of cat stance, the knee of the lead leg is relaxed which momentarily shifts the centre of gravity forward and allows the weight of the body to move forward and down. The completion of the strike in rooted stance allows the full power of the person’s body weight to be transferred into the strike."

I can't tell if this is a weight shift or a falling step because I don't know which side of the body relative to the cat stance is striking.

Sorry, I'm still not seeing the picture.

 

This sounds like semantics to me. Is there really some physiological difference or is it just because you're basing your definition off of what Dempsey wrote which is essentially a different martial art?

What is your definition of a falling step then? That may clarify some things then.

 

Maybe this'll help:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgK0KbZS714"]Murakami Katsumi Sensei - Sueyoshi no Kon Dai - YouTube[/ame]

 

Some of those front step movements do look like Dempsey's falling step to me. As a side point, towards the end of the book Dempsey actually recomends stepping forwards with the back foot in what he calls a double shift. Unfortunately he makes no mention of how the back foot stepping relates to a falling step.

 

Very nice video.

There is maybe one or two "pure" falling steps in the video (a good one at 18 seconds). What is in the video mostly is what I would call a combination of weight shift followed by falling step.

So I can't call it a falling step because if everyone did it that way and started to call it a falling step, then we would lose what exactly is a falling step. Okay I rant.

There is nothing wrong with a weight shift as that can happen when you shorten the footwork of a falling step to be applicable for shorter or no step. In fact when I reverse punch, I use a hip/torso rotation, a weight shift, and a falling step all together to generate power.

I guess what I'm looking for is a more pure example of a falling step without the other power compensators in the technique because the other power compensators such as a weight shift lessen the power from the falling step but make up for it by using other mechanics for power.

Falling step is purely using the force of gravity and converting it to forward force into the target like a battering ram swinging or a sled sliding down a hill.

 

Thanks FoD. I should make this required viewing for students... hehe.

As for falling step... not one in the video because you are pushing off the rear leg. Falling step only uses gravity. The pushing off the rear leg is a different mechanic for adding power with hip rotation.

So after the push, with the step, the last part of the footwork is a falling step (this you did do in the video), however, IMHO, you are pushing off the rear foot (indicating a weight shift) 50% and then doing 50% falling step, instead of say 10% weight shift and 90% falling step, which is more what I'm looking for.

 

it's the same thing but with the other leg.

 

haha! cheers!

re: falling step: i do drop before pushing, though i blame being short and needing more attack range

i did mention here though: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074605564#post1074605564
that in karate the most similar thing one will find is ryuei-ryu stomping, IMO, even more than with suri-ashi.

 

If this is all you think a falling step is, then surely any forward lunging strike would fit this definition. You might want to be a bit more specific. I don't think your battering ram swinging analogy applies well either. For a battering ram to swing, you need to shift the weight backwards first before moving forward, otherwise you're not going to get much force behind it.

 

The lunging strike doesn't work because you need to push off with the back leg. By the book, for it to work, your body needs to be leaning forward so you center of gravity is over your front foot. Lifting your foot allows your bodyweight to then push forwards as your foot comes back down to the ground.
I don't personally think the weight shift first really matters in the technique as long as you dont shift backwards first and then forwards.

 

Quite the opposite, very few lunging steps would equate to falling steps. Many push off the rear leg (the leg that is opposite the punching arm, the one the ENDs up in the rear after the punch is the rear leg in this case) when lunge stepping, this is a different mechanic for generating power. I think we just don't get what each other is saying. Sorry man, still enjoy your posts though.

As for the battering ram, you are right on and I'm so happy that you brought that up. The battering ram is, however, a perfect example and I will try to explain why.

The first thing you do with a battering ram is shift your weight slightly forward to get the thing moving forward. The battering ram swings forward but only a little bit, then it comes back and swings to the rear. As the battering ram swings to the rear, moving in the direction to behind your body, your body naturally weights forward in the opposite direction. If you body does not come forward, you would fly backwards with the battering ram's momentum.

If your rear foot is on you heel pressed to the ground, you will fly backwards. If your rear foot is on the ball of the foot like it should be, you will not fly backwards but just absorb the force.

If instead you try to push off your rear leg, you will counter the force of the battering ram and probably end up off balanced.

So you have to have your weight forward when the battering ram is behind you. As the battering ram comes forward, you take your falling step and bam.

Falling step does not attempt to drive you forward other than being a forward step, the falling step instead drives down into the ground... it is your REAR foot that acts like the slope of a hill and converts your downward force into forward force. Your front foot slams into the ground flat and the battering ram strikes the target with all the force going forward.

Notice the unique feeling of using a battering ram, as the ram is swinging forward, it almost feels like your body is moving backwards, but because the rear foot is not pushing and because weight is forward, it is like a slope and you do not move backwards. Falling step is the feeling your body is moving backwards but all of the force is going forward towards the target.

It defeats the purpose if you delibertly push off the rear foot.

Thanks again for the posts.

 

His definition is a bit too simplistic, hence why I was asking him to clarify.

Found another vid you might like, Rebel Wado. It's mostly Kawasaki we're watching here.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4GXqUAeewA"]Kawasaki Sensei - Oi Tsuki - YouTube[/ame]

 

haha, I love that video.

Kawasaki Sensei is using a falling step. See he stays on the ball of his right foot though out the punch (not including the beginning which is just "getting in position for a falling step".

The students, however, are all over the place with technique. I don't think I saw any of them using a falling step. Some were using rotation like in a fencing lunge but made into a karate punch. Some were shifting weight to one foot as they step and then shifting weight back to the other foot to punch (akin to pushing off the foot). These are not falling steps but using different mechanics... some of the mechanics aren't that good.

Kawasaki Sensei, however, yes, falling step!!!!

 

I was merely stating that as I think your definition is a bit too simplistic, especially if you're willing to claim that any step with the feet flat is not a falling step. It obviously needs more explanation on your part.

But you can also simply move the battering ram backwards until it can no longer go any further and then simply move it forward as well. The preparatory swing to the front is not absolutely necessary.

This is where both sides have merit. If your heel is flat and your stance is solid, what happens is you gain secondary reaction force with your strike. When you hit an object, some of the force you direct into it travels back into you. If you aren't as solid as the object, you will absorb the secondary reaction force. This is why punching an immovable object like a wall is D-U-M dumb. On the other hand, if you are far more stable than your target, not only is your opponent receiving the force from your initial impact but also that secondary reactionary force. This was explained beautifully in the book "Martial Mechanics" by Sifu Phillip Starr, which I highly recommend.

In ido geiko and similar line drills, obviously this is not as apparent as you are moving from various stances. However, when practicing from a natural posture and falling into a forward stance (the key is falling, as that's exactly how it was taught to me) with a simultaneous punch it becomes very apparent that the two are one and the same. Try it out, you might see where I'm coming from if you actually do that.

 

Ah... well what I am looking for is the use of the rear foot to convert the falling into forward force. It is a key component of the falling step mechanics, without this piece it is something else. IMHO.

 

The locking of the knee of the rear leg upon impact would account for that, wouldn't you think? That's exactly what Kawasaki Sensei is doing.

 

*ahem*