Karate punch mechanics vs boxing punch

Discussion in 'Karate' started by KidEspi, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Falling step is not like what is taught in karate for punching power. However, I was taught in karate from a tournament champion to use the falling step on a lunge punch in karate by pulling left foot back into cat stance and then stepping forward with the right foot and punching, the whole time keep the majority of my weight on my right foot and keeping on the ball of my left foot.

    It was the same as falling step mechanics.

    I see this punch used by a few well known karateka and champions, but it isn't taught except probably as part of supplemental training, IMHO.
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    from what i've seen so far in the pdf i found, the falling step is something i was taught at white belt :p
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Be interesting to see it taught in formal classes instead of only as supplemental training in karate.

    For the falling step to work, you need to stay on the ball of your rear foot and keep the weight on your front foot. The front foot steps and the down force from gravity is converted to forward force directly into the target. It is not a push off the rear foot, it is not a weight shift from rear foot to front foot. It is like a sled accelerating down a hill, as the sled goes faster, the slope converts the force from vertical to horizontal force... the rear foot acts as the slope.

    I'm not remembering anything like this at white belt.
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about


    Not sure of your karate background Rebel Wado, but what you described is often taught/covered during kihon or ido geiko drills.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Can you find a video that shows this in karate?

    I believe the concept could be in kihon but only if taught that way. Most teach weight shift, push off back foot, hip rotation, etc. but not falling step, IME.
     
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    we divided our kihon into strict basics and more kumite-oriented "free-flow" drills, with a relaxed sparring stance (which in kihon form we call hanzenkutsu-dachi or "half" zenkutsu), hands up, and a lot of dynamic movement. drop step/falling step is the natural application of zenkutsu-dachi principles to advancing into a technique (in fact, most stance switches into zenkutsu, and even the normal zenkutsu stepping are examples of drop step when done correctly).

    this thread has left me vaguely tempted to make a short-ish video to go with my article. might do one later.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  7. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    ok, i filmed a video with some random crap about karate punching, including what i posted earlier in the thread, but it's 20 min long and i forgot to compress it, so you'll have to wait a couple hours to suffer through my incessant awkward camera rambling. also has a few derps, like talking about extending the spine when i meant straightening the spine :p
     
  8. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Really looking forward to it!:cool:
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    While we wait for FoD's video. I did see the falling step concept being used in one of the previously posted videos.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roYjsR8eUMk"]Shihan Shigeru Kimura - YouTube[/ame]

    from about 26 to 41 seconds in the above video is a demonstration of the falling step concept with a lunge punch. Notice the point where Kimura Sensei is on the ball of his left foot, from that point on the weight is almost all on his right foot falling step. The emphasis is on falling step and less emphasis on hip and torso rotation for power.

    Alternatively, look at this video:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcsqA4ncnzY"]Kagawa Karate Oi zuki - YouTube[/ame]

    In the above video there is a hint of falling step, but it is hard to see as the emphasis is on hip rotation and weight shift for power.

    So in both the above videos there is falling step concept... however, the big difference is the emphasis on rotational (hip/torso) rotation for power. The first has little visible rotation (but it is still there), the second has visible rotation for power. In the first video (Kimura Sensei) the falling step is there, fairly easy to see. In the second video, the falling step is much harder to see because instead of just a falling step, there is a more pronounced weight shift and torso rotation for power. The falling step in the second video is almost hidden, hence my experience that it is only revealed in supplemental training in most karate.

    If one removed the hip rotation and the weight shift from the second video punching, in what is left, I can see a bit of a falling step concept in there.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Kimura was all about putting the weight of the body INTO the opponent. His power was legendary, but strangely Pete C feels that Kimura went past the point of maximum power efficiency in some of his later style developments - but he does state that is his personal feeling rather than a definitive claim

    Similarly look at the way this Shukokai dojo uses the same concepts shown by Kimura

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkJi1ZaOmMA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkJi1ZaOmMA[/ame]

    Each have their own little twist, but use the same type of motion.

    Even after all theses years I still have a soft spot for my first art/style!
     
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Excellent stuff, thanks for the post and video.

    I can see a few reasons that Pete C would think that way just in regards to the falling step. Jack Dempsey points out how hard it is to use a falling step because it requires more room. Pete C is more into striking at 18 inches or less from the enemy. A good falling step get more powerful the bigger the step (in general). So in the video with Kimura Sensei, where he is using the lunge punch with falling step, you can even see that he is sometimes too close (literally ends up where an elbow or shoulder strike would be better than a punch) because of the falling step need more room to be effective.

    When you have less room to move, you can use a very small falling step (e.g. inches) but it won't be as powerful so you can compensate by using more rotational power (e.g. torso rotation) and by using more of a weight shift than trying to just use a falling step.
     
  13. Madao13

    Madao13 Valued Member

    Any videos of this Pete C?
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Excellent stuff too.

    All sorts of different applications in there. Falling step, weight shift, torso rotation, and even using foot as an attack (e.g. stomp).
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    One already posted in this thread. Here is another:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubWGfnhGKLQ"]Self defense - Martial art - Powerstrike - YouTube[/ame]
     
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    What is your experience with karate? That might help us understand better where you're coming from. Any standard oi tsuki from a natural stance is going to be very similar to a falling step. Ten no Kata of Shotokan is a very basic and good example of this.

    When you're transitioning from a front stance to a front stance where most of your weight is on your lead foot, it's obviously going to be different than from say a more natural balanced stance. That is why formalized kihon is more for developing the mechanics rather than practical application.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I was in Goju-ryu for ten years, started under Chinen Sensei, my main teacher was Hartwig Sensei, and we were under Higaonna Sensei in the IOGKF. Of course there is a lot of both karate and boxing in Kajukenbo, which is my main art which I teach.

    I am not seeing the falling step in oi tsuki from a natural stance in Ten no Kata of Shotokan. What I see is the heels touching the floor and a shift of weight to the front foot as it moves forward. This is a weight shift, not a falling step. It still adds power to the strike, but it is not a falling step.

    For it to be a falling step (also known as a trigger step), from a natural stance I would come up to the ball of one of my feet as if a cat stance. For example, I would come up on the ball of my left foot similar to a cat stance, but my feet would be positioned as if it was a natural stance. I would then take the step forward with my right foot WITHOUT pushing off the left foot and keeping on the ball of the foot (my left heel would never touch the ground). The punch would be triggered by the right foot slamming on the ground as if a shoulder strike, however, my arm is already extended like a battering ram, so instead of striking with my shoulder, I am striking with my fist at the same time that it would be a shoulder strike.

    Hope this makes sense.

    Main thing is that in karate I see the heel on the ground instead of staying on the ball of the foot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2012
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This is the crux for me too. Pete has a very specific paradigm, and to that end the earlier Kimura application suits him (and me FWIW) better. Pete tends to keep his body higher and let the flow take him in to the opponent where he uses his head and elbows, and to an extent puts Karate to one side whilst he goes to work.

    This is from his app

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6ta5TCQVs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6ta5TCQVs[/ame]

    My Shukokai instructor, Lee Coffey, was very fast at that falling step style approach. He was a traditionalist through and through and I owe a massive debt to him. To this day I have a very powerful front kick exclusively because of how Lee taught me.
     
  19. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    And you can't do that from a natural stance without changing your foot positioning? If you raise your right foot barely off of the ground and slightly shift your hip and leg forward, you are going to get the exact same sensation without having to change your foot positioning whatsoever. If you follow through and finish the falling step, you can see how the front stance is actually well suited for this particular motion as well as Dempsey advocates using a long step to initially learn the falling step.
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    http://www.kowakan.com/archives/189

    Interesting article about the concept of hiza wo nuku in karate, "releasing the knees", which is essentially the falling step. He makes reference to your method, Rebel Wado, but in a kobudo fashion. However, there are other methods of doing this without transitioning from neko ashi dachi.
     

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