Karate in MMA

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Renegade80, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Dude, you need stop trying to call people out.

    jwt has done more articles, video analysis and threads in the Karate forum than the majority of people.

    I'm not telling you how to post, but generally calling people out isn't going to do you any favours.

    People do have lives outside of MAP and just because someone doesn't reply within a timescale of your liking doesn't mean they're avoiding the issue.

    If you want to discuss scenarios why not go through some of the SIM Day threads?
  2. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    I have nothing but respect and admiration for John and his work, I just disagree with some small details. My quoted comment was aimed at you as you had expressed interest.
  3. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    In that case take a look at The Sparring Thread or The Technique Thread. Plenty to pick apart there.

    Happy to shoot a video for discussion on most topics, empty hands or with weapons.
  4. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    You're videos are very good from what I've seen so far. I think we're talking at cross purposes though. No hard feelings.
  5. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Likewise and thank you.

    So easy to post at cross purposes and miss the real intention.
  6. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    so i just got this linked to me:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6DITFStJn8"]How to block punches in MMA - YouTube[/ame]

  7. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Good thread, been following it partly on another forum.
    Seems to me that Dan has been largely talking about martial ARTS applications and John has been mostly dealing with the more applied/civil defence side of things, where learned skill is tempered by immediate and practical application (I know that's a lot of conversation condensed into soundbites but what the hey).

    My take with the block thing is (and pardon me if i'm stating the obvious) using a 'block', like using a guard, or a stance, is multipurpose. By their nature they need to be fast and effective! I personally feel that any block applied in a way that just gets me out of the way and doesn't do damage to my opponent is a wasted opportunity and probably an opening for my attacker... and I can't believe we're still having these conversations about the Hikite in Karate!

    As far as guard/stance goes, I tend to have my hands lower, more traditional karate guard style at distance (competition style sparring) and they tend to come up and in as distance closes, as does my stance. We do have the orthodox boxing style upright stance in karate, it's called Shizentai or 'natural stance' and it's always my starting point when talking about/teaching the more self defence side of Karate. I'm not very flexible in the hips so this shorter stance is better for me to get me into my preferred closer range. I have no experience with real fight/attack scenarios so I don't really know what i'd do then.

    If it works, it works and I don't spend time worrying about whether it's (good) Karate or not.
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award


    Whilst were talking of karate in mma ,
  9. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Karate in MMA? May aswell just take up Full Contact Kickboxing.
  10. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Nice video. Nelson moves in low stance, bounces like in karate sparring, keeping front hand mobile then lunges blitzes like Tobikmizuki but also grapples. Cool.
    Had to laugh at commentators attempt to shoehorn 'Karate no Sente ashi' into it though and i'm not sure about his interpretation of Goju's circular/straight hard/soft either!
  11. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    And there lies the big debate. Can someone apply distinct elements of their karate to MMA and be successful? Or is competitive full contact fighting the preserve of a few arts and nothing else works without twisting it into an imitation of said competition styles?

    My own view is that anyone who understands combat can make any set of techniques or strategies work.

    Key to this position is the belief that training methods (ie the exercises used to develop skills and attributes) are completely incidental and nothing to do with a given fighting style.

    Some styles do have their own traditional methods, but they are never the totality of the training. In fact, with the exception of the traditional elements most schools vary quite a bit in the training methods. Even historically, karate in particular was at the forefront of innovation as new materials technologies and research led to new equipment and training guidance.

    What then makes up a fighting style? A combination of the strategy (game plan) tactics (skills) and the mechanical elements. Use these and you are using your martial art.

    Use them at the right times and with a solid awareness of strengths, weaknesses and the environment you are in, and you will be making effective use of your martial art.
  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I don't think it's simply that full-contact competition is the purview of a select few styles. I think it's more complex than that. For one thing, nothing at all prevents any karateka from taking his skills into MMA. The video that started this thread demonstrates that.

    So the bigger question may be why karate hasn't been more widely embraced by that community. And, to me, the answer is that other styles were able to demonstrate consistently that they worked in that environment earlier than karate did. And if you're interested in competitive fighting, you're going to look for a proven formula and then train it hard. You're not necessarily looking for something new.

    The way that "new" approaches (i.e., approaches new in that specific environment) become incorporated into MMA is for one or two intrepid souls to just go out and show the utility of something. And not with a mind to revolutionizing the game. Just because it's what they do and they're reasonably confident they can pull it off.

    I doubt sincerely that Maurice Smith started booting people in the head in MMA, despite countless examples of that strategy failing, imaging that head kicks would become a staple of the sport a few years later. He did it because he was good at it and he thought he could make it work. Turns out he was right. And when he was right enough, other fighters took notice and started experimenting with high kicking again themselves. That's the nature of MMA. As a BJJ friend of mine once said, the community isn't closed minded. It just wants empirical reasons for the changes it makes.
  13. armanox

    armanox Kick this Ginger...

    That's my view of the MMA group (in general, some sub groups are pretty snotty...) - they don't take things on faith.

    We take the approach at my karate class that a lot of things that are taught early on in karate (basic blocks, the basic punch returns to chamber, etc) are building blocks - look at a lot of things in 'more advanced' kata - the 'reinforced' blocks that start in Pinan Yondan, and appear again in Kusanku don't really make that block better - but are more along the lines of keeping your guard up (rather then having one arm out and the other at your ribs). When you start to see what works, and what doesn't, you 'create' more effective techniques and combos. You learn a library of techniques, but it is up to you to figure out which ones work for you and which ones don't in different situations (I know some people that I wouldn't want to try to trade punches with - but I'd take the risk on a leg reap or sacrifice throw to put them in a position they're less comfortable in. At the same time, there are a lot of people I would much rather not try to grapple with like that. And I know at least one person that I'd never be able to pull a wrist/arm lock off against because they can easily out muscle me on it).

    The MMA movement has caused a lot of people to reevaluate their ideas on training, and has been an eye opener for a lot of people that they really weren't as good as they thought they were. On the flip side, is sadly has also created a lot of fanatics that (much like in karate/TKD prior to the rise of MMA) believe what they are doing is Gospel and if it doesn't fit their formula it must be wrong.
  14. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    This is one area where MMA excels over TMA. If something is shown to be a better way of doing it, the MMA community change to the new better way.

    A lot of TMA take the view that I will do it this way because some old Japanese man I have ever met did it this way 100 years ago so it must be right.
  15. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    “Here the meaning of hiki-te, or pulling hand [the hand on the hip], is to grab the opponent’s attacking hand [lead hand] and pull it in while twisting it as much as possible so that his body is forced to lean against the defender.” – Gichin Funakoshi, Karate-Jutsu
  16. Renegade80

    Renegade80 Valued Member

    rne02 has succinctly evidenced how sometimes TMA folk can throw the baby out with the bath water when working to imitate what works according to other peoples standards.
  17. rne02

    rne02 Valued Member

    I'm not sure what you mean.

    Hikite was created for a specific purpose that has nothing to do with "chambering" at the hip.

    Are you saying we should continue to "chamber" just because at some point in the last 100 years someone down the line totally misinterpreted the meaning of Hikite and started telling his students it was something it wasn't?
  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    hikite was not created by okinawans. it exists in many shapes (including the way it's done in karate) in styles that are vastly older than okinawan karate. hell, it exists in qigong sets as well.

    EDIT: or rather, more correctly, having the hand held close to the body, including the way in which it is held at the hip in karate, with the arm perpendicular to the torso, [see above]. in some cases the hand at the hip is interpreted as a pull, in some it is not, and in cases which don't use the same style of chambered hand, but which do use off-hand grabs and pulls (ex: bajiquan, xingyiquan, taijiquan), the arm that pulls actually moves in a contextually appropriate way to the technique being executed (usually not being perpendicular to the torso but rather in line with the technique). compare northern mantis, where there are specific grabbing techniques (same as in okinawan karate), but where the chambered hand is still used in training and in forms even where grabbing and pulling applications are done with the specific techniques designed for that purpose*

    *which is NOT to say that hikite is not useful to train pulls, but rather that in my opinion it's somewhat blinkered to issue a blanket statement that all hikite is pulling (regardless of what the literal translation is, as the hand is pulled back to the hip, but not necessarily pulling something along with it).
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Hikite is far from exclusive to Karate



  20. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I take it you are not a believer in the hikite=throwing theory I have been hearing occasionally? Do you think the stance developed because in a bare-knuckle environment body-shots were a bigger concern than head-shots? I have seen people use a single low hand to defend takedowns in MMA, but I am finding it difficult to see the advantage in a pure striking environment. Do you think the low hand positioning could just be an old method that has vanished as a result of higher guards consistently proving themselves to be more effective, or does the position still have relevance today?

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