Karate History Project - Pilot Study - Introduction of new kicks to karate

Actually that was me... sorry. I did say "probably TKD" but I stand corrected anyway -thanks Mitch

I do feel however that its introduction into the mainstream syllabus, was probably more to do with the development "Shiai" - particularly as mentioned earlier - in the University clubs of mainland Japan.

It also fits in with the Gigo Funakoshi timeline of things.

@ PASmith - Although many Wado schools (mine included) practice Jodan kicks in basics, and will also apply them to Jiyu and Shiai kumite, Jodan kicks are not "natural" in Wado either.

If we look at the core solo, paired kata and Yakusoku kumite, there are no Jodan kicks.

We also have lots of atemi, aiki, throws, locks and holds built into our system.

Perhaps to categorise it as Karate would be incorrect imo.

But maybe you should give it a go also.

Gary

 

Only what I have been told first hand from my sensei (who trained at the Nichidai) and other senior Wado sensei that I know/have trained with.

As I understand it, Kendo and Judo reign supreme (in Japanese college) - or at least did when karate was trying to cut a grove into the mainstream ma system within the Japanese Unis

"Shiai" was possibly Karate's way to try get a piece of that action - at least that is what I have been lead to believe - so it stands to reason that "Karate" techniques were going to change as a result to accommodate this.

I will see what I can dig up for you.

Gary

 

Err, sorry for the misunderstanding, Mitch. I now see what you mean by realistic as in a viable training option. I don't see the Japanese methods of training as automatically lending themselves to more high kicking, per se (or at least not resulting in a natural evolution to high kicking). There are plenty of Karate dojo's that still don't use high kicks even though they are trained in lines and with numerous people. The lunge punch seems to be the preferred long range technique from my experience. I think that the introduction of high kicking was Yoshitaka/Gigo Funakoshi putting his own stamp on Karate and taking the art in a new direction much like his daddy did. I think that your theory does hold water, though. The new training methods on the mainland certainly don't discourage high kicks.

I can't give you a specific date for when tournament style karate was created, but if the Bubishi is any indication then the Dai Nippon Butokukai had a lot to do with it, especially around the 1920s and 1930s when the art was being introduced to the mainland.

 

Mas Oyama was a Korean. He lived in Japan, the colonial power. His name was Choi Young E. He did have a relationship with Gen Choi, the extent of which I am not sure. They met in Japan & he came to visit the ITF Headquarters in Seoul Korea at the request or invitation of Gen Choi

 

TKD most definately came from karate. The Koreans who went abroad to study academics also trained in karate while in Japan. When they returned & WWII ended on Aug 15, 1945, 5 Korean karate schools, they called kwans opened from 1944-46. There is little historical evidence that supports a link to the Korean folk game of Taek Kyon, which means should push. The sole man who was credited with keeping it alive was eventually designated a human cultural asset by the SK govt. He & his students deny a link to TKD. The men who developed TKD into a new martial sport also did not claim to have studied Taek Kyon. However in an attempt to create a connection to KMAs of the past, they fabricated stories about KMAs of the past, implying a direct connection that simply was not there. When you read the literature put out by the SK govt, the KTA, KKW & WTF it has pages about Korea's history & MAs they had long ago. They then have at most 2 sentences that mention the kwans, post WWII, then flash forward to 1972 when the KKW was formed.
To my understanding 2 Koreans claimed to have studied Taek Kyon during the occupation period, Gen. Choi Hong Hi, the person who named TKD & devised its 1st system & GM Hwang Kee, the founder of original kwan MooDukKwan. Neither claim was independently verified. Over the passage of time, Gen. Choi scaled back on his claim. I think NK though may back up his claim, as Gen Choi was born & raised initially in the northern part of a unified Korea that is now the D.P.R.K. These claims have been attacked by other TKD leaders. It should be further noted that GM Hwang Kee taught TangSooDo, Korean karate & then formed the SuBakDo association, never really falling under the TKD umbrella name.
Now the 1st English book on TKD was written in 1965 by Gen Choi. It is essentially a copy of a 1960 karate book by Nishyama & Brown, copyrighted 1959 in Japan. By coincidence Nishyama was Gen Choi's Japanese name during the occupation. Gen Choi also trained in & taught karate while studying in Japan during the occupation of Korea. A direct comparison of the 2 books side by side show at this point (1965) the TKD book contained the same kicks & a few more. The TKD book also started to have many more flying kicks in it. By 1972 when Gen Choi wrote a 500+ page book on TKD, unprecidented at the time (I think) it contained many new kicks, including mutiple kicks, flying combination kicks etc. I know cira 1965 GM Park Jong Soo now of Toronto Canada, devised the reverse turning kick & the hooking version of it. he & Gen Choi struggled with the name of the kick, until they settled on opposite of the turning kick, as they were turning in the opposite direction & kicking an opponent at the side rear.
Now some may seea difference in the TKD kicking between the original group, the ITF & the bigger group the WTF. Since members of the Jidokwan came up with new sports rules that were radically different from karate matches at the time (they did this to be different from karare AND for national pride), this over time made it neccessary to develop faster kicks & quicker stepping, as this sport became a counter attack one. This is how TKD's kicks came about. Since TKD came from karate, so did its 1st kicks. However to be different from karate they went to the kicking emphasis. Apparently there was some historical preference for the feet with earlier games.

 

Then explain this:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3PIc6nQBPA&feature=related"]YouTube - Taekkyun #25[/ame]

Show me one example of karate using those kicks before TKD popularized them. At about 6:00, the sparring is almost identical (minus sweeps which can be dangerous in sparring) to how I trained.

 

Any idea when this video is from? From the quality of the film, I'm guessing the 1940s or maybe the 1950s, but probably before the 1960s.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dHfFc8mPwE"]YouTube - Sosai masutatsu oyama musik video[/ame]
(And before anyone criticizes the music, it was this or a techno remix of "Eye of the Tiger." Be thankful I chose this).

I'm not saying Gigo Funakoshi didn't start doing high kicks until Mas Oyama did; I don't know much of anything about Gigo Funakoshi. I'm just wondering whether Mas Oyama started using those kicks before Taekwondo really built up some momentum outside of Korea. If true, that would support the theory that high roundhouses and the like were used in Korea pre-WWII, where Oyama trained before immigrating to Japan.

 

This just got posted to the "old masters" thread. It's a bunch of Shotokan guys in 1946.

At 1:20, you see several high roundhouse kicks. At 4:17, you see some kumite including some spinning motions, a jumping front kick, etc. At 4:52 there's a spinning back kick. At 5:12 there's some crazy spinning double kick thing. At 5:19 there appears to be a jumping axe kick.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKdmTonRwJ8"]YouTube - Démonstration Karaté Shotokan - 1946 - 2/2[/ame]

 

Before my hip decided to retire I was getting heavily involved in Taekkyon, including organising a visit to Korea to train with Lee Yong-Bok. Prior to the emergence of WTF TKD and the popularity of head kicks, the rules of Taekkyon stated that a bout was won by tripping or throwing your opponent. Only after WTF TKD appeared were points allocated for head kicks, in order to make Taekkyon popular like its younger cousin (TKD). In fact Taekkyon had no high kicks to speak of! I think TKD is Korea's re-branded version of Karate and the Taekkyon myths were brought in later to give it a cultural connection separate to its Japanese roots.

It should be noted, however, that while the Korea Taekkyon Association stated Gen. Choi did not study Taekkyon, at the time there were no records kept of an art that was banned by the Japanese and practiced in secret. So there is no way to prove conclusively if Gen. Choi did study it or not. But the high kicks influence myth is exactly that: a myth.

 

Sure - it is another youtube propaganda video posted by a pathetic Korean Nationalist who is trying to create more revisionist history, which is usually par for the course on that particular website . Sorry, still not a good argument. what you show is a new, TKD-influenced version of Taekkyon, not the original product. Nice try, though.

 

I keep looking through my books (most of which aren't with me at the moment, I'm on vacation) for a reference to a "Scalping Kick" performed by an Okinawan karate master. That would indicate that head-height kicks were at least performed in traditional (pre-WWII) Okinawan systems, although the kata makes it clear that most kicks were aimed relatively low. But does anyone else know about the incident I'm refering to?

 

http://arawakagekan.com/articles/entry/kicking_okinawan_style

"It is said that he could use nothing but kicks and literally defeat multiple opponents. His most famous technique has been passed down today as the scalping kick. It has been regarded by many as a type of lead roundhouse kick, originally known as a side snap instep kick, but what allowed it to slice the scalp so strategically that the flap of skin and hair was cut loose, is not known, though there are a couple of theories. It seems that Shaolin martial arts always relied on special nail hardening substances to enhance the weapon ability of fingernails, and it is believed that Takemura applied one to his toenails making it an extremely hard surface. It is then believed that he trimmed it in such a way as to give an effective cutting angle to the nail when applied in a certain way with a kick. Some say that any adult toenail, trimmed correctly would have this capability, without any additional hardening. It is known that in sparring and tournaments, people have been accidentally cut by toenails in the past. In one of Bill ‘Superfoot’ Wallace’s title defenses, he cut an opponent’s face with his toenail."

apparently a type of snap roundhouse or yoko keage kick hitting with the toenails

http://books.google.com.ar/books?id...1oCSAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

mention of the above dude, of chotoku kyan, zenryu shimabuku and even motobu as being great kickers (around page 98 or so)

 

Ah, thanks. That's where I heard it from, but that book's back home at the moment.

 

I'd be careful about assuming that the scalping kick was a head height kick. There's nothing in the versions of this story that I've come across that indicate that Takemura actually lifted his foot to head height. My assumption would be that he brought his opponents' heads down to a more amenable height.

We can't really say either way without further evidence. But I do know that I kick people in the head quite frequently, although its years since I've kicked higher than waist-height.

As an aside, I also suspect that Takemura also employed the Okinawan principle of 'never giving a sucker an even break', and so had a blade or sharp edge of some sort attached to his shoe.

Mike

 

re: blade, that's actually mentioned in the links i gave ¬_¬

 

I believe the literal translation of Taek Kyon is SHOULDER PUSH. Also one must know that Gen Choi cut back later in life on his claims to have learned Taek Kyon from studying to just doing a little to hearing stories told to him by his caligraphy teacher. While there may be no real way to verify these claims, I think NK has said or is prepared to say that his caligraphy teacher did do taek kyon. However I am not sure the veracity of that info can be relied on

 

I don't buy that. You didn't see Taekwondo do those techniques until later. How could Taekkyon "borrow" those kicks from Taekwondo when TKD wasn't doing them?
Also, Taekkyon does those kicks much differently than Taekwondo used to. An early Taekwondo jumping front kick looked much different than a Taekkyon jumping front kick, much closer to a karate jumping front kick. I've watched both. Early Taekwondo was closer to Shotokan. So to say that Taekkyon was influenced by Taekwondo kicks doesn't add up.

 

I think the point is that the taekkyon that you see on youtube vids is a different ballgame from original taekkyon. This revival taekkyon is influenced by modern TKD's leg techniques.

 

You don't get it. What I am pointing out is that:

1) The modern version of Taekkyon in the videos that you posted is not the original Taekkyon.

2) The modern version of Taekkyon was influenced by Taekwondo in that it raised the kicks up to head level when the original product used low kicks to the legs and feet. It is the inclusion of high level kicking that I am talking about, and high level kicking was not a part of original Taekkyon. TKD made high level kicking en vogue in Korea and now Taekkyon, in its modern version as opposed to its original version, incorporates high level kicking. The original version didn't, now the new version does. Where do you think the influence came from to facilitate this change? Perhaps the national art/sport, maybe?

As an aside, of course TKD front kick is a lot like Shotokan front kick - where do you think TKD came from, lol? The punching method, the blocks, and the forms are like Shotokan, too. Coincidence? No way.