Was the plan supposed to be that KE would replace all of the governing bodies? That seems like a terrifying idea that would have us all practicing generic sports karate!
To my knowledge MADEC is an entirely different entity. TBH if they'd done the work correctly, the only structure that really mattered was the 4 year plan, that was good and contained openess, transparency and accountability. The body was SUPPOSED to be structured around it. It seems tho' that too many of the management board still have old ambitions and grievances.
My understanding was that they would take control of liscencing , insurance etc leaving indvidual associations to be able to carry on teaching the same way , also there would be various karate england competitions where All the top competitors could come together and fight for the british title without the politics , just think of some of the big names you'd love to see fight but can't at the minute because they have the wrong kind of liscence.
They all did fight together at the last National tournament see results here http://www.karateengland.org.uk/Competitions/EnglishChamps/News.aspx KE do have registration, to get continued funding they have to run various qualifications including Clubmark and the UKCC coaching qualification, update Child Protection and H & S procedures, so no one will be able to 'carry on teaching in the same way' but maybe that won't be so bad...
I understand (and agree) about the standards ke is trying to enforce , what i was refering to was mooseys fear of everyone being taught "generic sport karate" , i'm not very good at expressing myself over the internet Out of interest was wayne otto at the champs?
Hi MAPper's I'm having this recurring nightmare of ' BestFit ' or ' Structured to suit ' ' karate ' being foisted on us. Most politicians go into politics to try to serve and promote, initially their local community, then perhaps moving on to a greater and wider vista. However strong their ideological views, at some point they are ensnared by the bright lights and trappings of power, ( John Prescott springs to mind ). On the day I was having a dialogue with Steve ( Rowe ) about the ins and outs of the machinations of KE, an event ocurred on televison which really struck a chord with me. All the great and the good, the high and mighty had gathered in London to commemorate the terrible atrocity of 7/7. Many fine and revered political and civic leaders made heartfelt eulogies and speeches, ( I'm sure the thought and desire to be seen, heard and noticed for political capital was the very last thing on their minds ). There are many examples I could give of the crassness of these ' Donkeys ', here is one........Tessa Jowell opened the service by making a typical heart tugging speech. With laughable timing and scheduling, the next national news item then proceeded to tell, on the same day, David Mills, ( Tessa Jowells husband ), had been indicted by the Italian courts for fraud on a multi million dollar scale and if found guilty was looking at ten. It hastened to add that Tessa Jowells, now seemingly estranged from her alleged criminal husband was without any blame or involvement in the events and presumably the vast sums of money which allegedly found it's way into David Mills' bank account had absolutely no bearing or correllation on Tessa Jowells' extravigant lifestyle. ( At this point I have to add that everything on this matter is subjudacy and I have only repeated allegations made in the national press, to which all MAPper's must form there own opinion !!? ). However, to draw a parallel, how many ( potential ) members does KE have, ( perhaps Steve could help us on that one ). How much are the liscences ? ( And again ? ) If conservatively, say, there are 100,000 members and liscences are £ 20 a throw, then that's 2 mill. Then there's the sport funding allocation, how much is it, who spends it and on what ? ( I suspect small, traditional instructors and clubs wont see any of it, or am I being obtuse ? ). What about expenses, who gets what and how much. What about all the little discounts, insurance, equipment , merchandizing and all the kick backs that go with it ? KE.......................it gonna make ' some ' people a shed full of money ..................and guess who's paying !!! The purpose of this thread is not offend anybody ( excluding GRK, or some such name, Sokes / Soaks or wealthy martial arts politicians ), and is to primarily foster further discussion. Jaae.
I've been browsing through this thread and others like on the net, not because it affects me directly but more indirectly. I'm of the opinion that the problems within the KE are similar to those outside of KE (headless chicken syndrome). I can see a massive motive to gain power and control over the mass market of KE "traditional rule bound" MA, now ready funds are available. IMHO the struggle for power sometimes overshadows the needs of the powerless. I look at some posts and think WTF is going on now! another almighty bloody mess up top?. I've never been totaly like minded, I'm a sit on the fence and go with the flow type of person. But when the flow looks set for a trip down the drain I think it's time to look for safe ground. And for those who can, put things into perspective so transparently that people are less fearful of being over manipulated. A question to anybody please, who are those persons in the hot and driving seats of the KE Board, adinistration and instructors / coaches. People in control and the people that represent the organisations, rather than Organisations? The chain from top to bottom? Thanks
Hi Alan The Management Board is: Chairman/President Joe Ellis (NAKMAS) Vice-Chair/President Brian Philcox (FEKO) Vice-Chair/President Peter Allen (AMA) (now resigned) Company Secretary Bob Poynton (KUGB) Technical Chairman Andy Sherry (KUGB) Board Members: Vic Charles MBE Mick Dewey Greg Durrant Leo Lipinski Nick Hahifihi was appointed as the Chief Executive Officer. Ticky Donovan was appointed National Coach Location of Karate England Headquarters Bisham Abbey National Sports Centre, Near Marlow, Bucks SL7 7RT Hope that helps.. Steve
Thank you, I was not sure of all the names and positions, I have a visual impression now. I heard that the guy from Rugby is off too, shortly ?? I was astonished when I first saw Mr Sherry and Poynton on the list. Coming from a KUGB background myself and having a slight insight to the way it worked, I wonder if the whole karate scene has been turned on its head and severely shaken. I was under the impression they were staunch Shotokan. I gained a lot experience from all the KUGB guys. Time will tell as things change, as I say it doesn’t affect me too much but I think it’s prudent to keep an eye on what’s revolving around you. I know Mick Dewey and Dave Hazard, they helped me out a lot about 10 years ago. I’m up at Bisham on a course laid on by Terry Wingrove in a few weeks, I’m really looking forward to it. "Without fear or favour, regardless of affiliation", seems to me like a step in the right direction. Thanks again for the info and your website, very informative. Alan
I don't see Mssrs Sherry and Poynton becoming any less staunchly shotokan, I think it's possibly more that they saw Sport England registration as being inevitable and wanted to make sure they could represent their organisation at the highest level. I seem to remember that Andy Sherry (and Bob Poynton and Bob Rhodes and several of the KUGB "old guard") have been competitors in the old British "all styles" championships and international all styles teams, so they aren't all that secular in sticking to JKA/KUGB type competition. As I said, I suspect that if a unified British all-styles karate squad was to be formed for the olympics (because in the end, that's what this seems to be about), the KUGB would like to see some of their people in it. So getting involved with Sport England would seem like a necessary step.
If this is the case, which it probably is, it's a shame that they're getting involved due to necessity. Having a unified governing body allowing British Karate to be represented adequately across the world is a good idea. From my knowledge of the KUGB (and my short time at one of the founding clubs) there does seem to be a little bit of a 'this is the best association' mentality. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and don't take it as a KUGB bashing, because obviously there is a reason they're the biggest single style org. But when it comes down to it, if groups are entering for the sole reason that they feel they should be well represented, their doing it for the wrong reasons and things will become problematic
Yes I can see your observations as a logical step towards the Olympics for the KUGB. I think they have some work to do before 2012, big change is inevitable for everybody I suspect. The old guard, I have some old film of the all styles days. Enoeda, Steve Arneil, Brian Fitkin, Ticky Donavan, Bop Poynton, Andy Sherry and others, all training in an old school classroom. It has the old BBC program Open Door with Enoeda, Kawasoe, Tomita, and students of the time, narrated by Bryn Williams BKCC. It also shows Terry O’Neil, Andy Sherry, Bop Poynton doing house work for Mrs Enoeda. Sorry I digress, thanks for the feed back. Alan
The biggest single style? how true. I think the enigma of Enoeda and his brilliant following played an important part in the rise of the KUGB. For me it all fell apart when things karate were growing up and changing, except sport KUGB. I feel very strongly about my lifes karate practice. The best and most impotant things that have happened in it is a change. I can't see any one style or organisation being able to cope with change as readily as many of members have. The bottom line is, IMHO the structures will crumble, and from the rubble a new breed of Karate-ka will rise. I am revolting
Hi, Most of us die hard ' trads ' have trained with some or many of the Karate ' forefathers ' and pioneers, Suzuki, Takamizawa , Maeda, Higoanna, Enoeda,Kawasoe,Arneil,etc, etc, etc and have moved on. There's room, for traditional, sport, freestyle, all style karate in this green and pleasant land. However, while I don't like paying income tax, I have no choice including how it's spent. I'm not too happy about a ' karate tax ', either, although I would be happier, if things were transparent, there was clarity and mutual and equal benefits to all karateka who subscribed to KE. Many of the names Steve Rowe has mentioned are incredibly skilled martial artists and honourable men. Can most of these people really sit down and do business with people like the GRK ( sic ) and 40/50 year old 10 th dans ? Could Sensei Andy Sherry REALLY co - host a KE seminar with GRK ( sic ) kyu grade instructors and 11 th dan instructors of quasi - made up styles ? ( Whoops, from 10 to 11 th dan in the blink of an eye.............. ). Sorry, but I and many others couldn't............... Jaae
"But when it comes down to it, if groups are entering for the sole reason that they feel they should be well represented, their doing it for the wrong reasons and things will become problematic" Is this not the reason for this thread? "problematic" an understatment I think. A total mess, a massive waste of public money and an absolute travisty of organisational power.
That's a reasonable point of view and I respect it. However I can't conform to it all. Is there life after death in karate? not as we know it. I think. If we can let go of the dead and diying and embrace the evolved living, that's the future IMHO. The depth of karate is nothing in comparison to the organisationl values of the over subscribed mass that shroud it, IMHO.
I think its important to recognise that Andy Sherry and Bob Poynton are not just two of the most senior Shotokan Karateka in the UK, they are amongst the most senior karateka period and have probably taught a few of the other people on that list down the years.
KE exists solely to operate the 4 year plan to achieve government targets in sport in English Karate. To this end 3 - 4 million pounds is available. This is solely for WKF sport karate international medals and any other 'health, inclusion and sporting' targets the govt wants to achieve (notably UKCC coaching and Clubmark). The people that will see the money will be the employees, the expenses of the Management Board and the machinery that makes competition work. There will be more local funding available through PESSCL and other such schemes. Us normal karateka wont see anything and nothing will change. My only interest is my team and the fact that we've never had a 'properly accepted' governing body.
Yes I agree absoluty with what you say. I personally have experience of what they taught; it has had a lasting affect. My observation is, what is taught now is great for kids and sport but a bit sport focused for today’s non sport karate scene. Another subject perhaps. The concept of karate pre dates sport karate. Let’s put things into perspective, the KE will have a membership of around 70-80% children. Karate is like some wines it matures. I will always have the greatest respect for who in karate has affected me, over 22 years KUGB and 35 years studying as a student. Getting back to the thread.........moving on for karate's Governing Body solution and the mess within the KE. We really need to take a new study of Karate today. Sport, non sport, adult, children’s karate and the natural integration of styles. I can’t see any progress being made and I think the struggle for power of the KE will become so transparent it will destroy the dynasties of Shogun karate. History in the making, very interesting.
Your point for existance of the KE is quite clear. But isn’t it also clear for interested onlookers that this not going to happen. The plan (flow chart) might hold water. To implement the plan requires a massive change in the way self regulated organisations who are the KE, operate. Too much change I think. Back to the drawing board with a restructured board perhaps? Oh and perhaps some re-funding !
