Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    It's part of the benefits of cross training.

    Years ago I tried out over twenty knife counters with trained knife fighters. Out of those only three worked reliably for me. I then figured out why those three worked well and it came down to the proper use of principles. When I got a better understanding of how the underlying principles worked, I was able to use that knowledge and get many of the knife counters that failed for me, to work much more reliably.

    Turns out that almost everything that works is a variation of some very common themes combined with strong fundamentals.


    A trained uke with expertise in something else (e.g. BJJ) can help to find holes in techniques/transitions that should not be there. The hole could be at the very beginning because they keep elbows in and fight for underhooks, or the hole could come later when they are able to speed things up or slow things down to counter because you are not applying constant pressure effectively.

    Out of six ways, you may only find that one way you use is any good... then use that knowledge to help figure out how to improve yourself in the other five ways. IMHO.

    Here is a BJJ version of the arm lock demonstrated in JWT's video:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEZS_wBFt8"]Gracie Knife Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    This is the same way I was taught in Kajukenbo for applying the lock, but it was unarmed version where we strike the throat first, then lock the arm. No disrespect to the video or method, but this is caveman version (and I say caveman in a good way). It is the basic way you should start learning the lock. Using both hands and keeping the hands together around the elbow. If hands are separated, you may be able to strike, but the lock is SLOWER. Hands/wrists together is much quicker. From this caveman version of the lock, one can progress to other versions based on their experience and expertise.

    However, start caveman version, IMHO, because it is the most basic version and understand the underlying principles that make it work. Progress from there.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    That's not the arm lock I'm demonstrating. It's an arm lock I use, though not in that context. We used to do a similar defence, but when we put on the armour and went full pelt we found that the majority of the time the defender got multiple chest and belly stabs.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    This cross training and pressure testing stuff. I must try it some time. :rolleyes:
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    What is the difference between using and demonstrating?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVoA5BfSVs0"]Bitesize Bunkai 5 Nijushiho Kata - YouTube[/ame]

    Also, multiple stabs to the chest has to do with the speed of the lock. As I said, you have to have hands together for the lock to be quick. Is that the way you train it?
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I think you're missing my point. I know the arm lock you've shown, I use the arm lock you've shown. It is related to both the locks I show here, but at the same time it isn't the variation I'm showing. The feel of the second one I show is similar to the feel of the one you've shown, the feel and direction of the first one is quite different. They do different things.
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I train it with the person in front genuinely trying to stab me as hard and fast and often as possible. That lock doesn't go on because when a person is really doing that all the angles are wrong and you get punctured multiple times trying to achieve it. It doesn't matter how you have your hands - it's the wrong tool for the job in this situation. If you are getting it on then the attack is too false.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    He doesn't even move off-line. I wouldn't want to trust my forearm to be the only line of defence between my organs and a blade. I mean, it might end up that way if I mess up, but not as a matter of choice and preference.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I see the locks as just variations of each other, with the one in the BJJ video as being the most basic (caveman version). And I also see one version of the lock transitioning into a different lock.

    I may be missing the point, but my point is that they all start the same way by rolling the elbow. The most basic version is to use both hands to roll the elbow. In your video, there is a majority of the time where you use your body and one hand/arm to roll the elbow... to me this is a more complex version of applying the first part of the lock, and thus it is where a beginner would have the most trouble learning.

    You could start the lock with both hands on the elbow (the hand on bottom overlapping the other hand). This would be a fundamental position to avoid a hole at the beginning.

    Every time you start the lock using only one hand, test that against a stronger larger opponent and see how well it works compared to two hands.

    That's all I'm saying.
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The forearm is just a shield. It is not part of the lock technique. It is just how the BJJ guy in the video wanted to protect from the knife. The lock itself starts with the rolling of the elbow. The first guy doesn't do it that well, the second one does explain it much better. Forget about the knife. Just look at the lock.

    I already said that the way I learned it in Kajukenbo had nothing to do with evading a knife. The first thing is we strike the throat, then we lock the arm. The fastest way to apply the lock is with both of your hands together, IME.

    It is caveman version. Caveman version is based on doing maximum damage in shortest amount of time. Caveman version sucks for actual self-defense against a lethal force.

    The caveman version of any application is just a starting point. A lot of people skip caveman (maximum damage) and go for more complex and subtle stuff that ends up not working under pressure because they never developed caveman, IMHO.
  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I'm aware of that. I'm also aware of the disadvantages of the two handed position when things go wrong in terms of being more tied up when it comes to immediate protective or percussive responses. Context is king.

    The first lock shown is always (for me) one handed. It works not only by the rolling but also by pulling away and down at 90 degrees from the recipient.
    The second lock is usually two handed, but I'm not putting it on fully and I'm talking, and when I talk I have a tendency to bring my hands in front of me.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    OK, I see what you're getting at now.
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Again, it isn't about evading a knife. It is about learning how to apply the lock as quickly as possible in a reliable way and apply maximum damage. Locks are slow and can be full of holes allowing for counter.

    The A, B, Cs of technique. You are building words with these letters and sentences with the words. Evading the knife and applying a counter is a word, taking out the opponent is a sentence. The lock part is simply understanding the letters used to form the words.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Edit... By the way JWT: You have good technique, IMHO. Even when you use only one hand, your other hand is close in case you need it. The point that the one handed lock is more complex and it has a potential for more holes. This is where a BJJ trained person may be better at countering unexpectedly.

    From JWT: I would stress that I'm just trying to demonstrate a Kata here! :)
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    RW - sorry - I thought I hit quote and I hit edit by mistake, deleting part of your post. I didn't realise until I clicked post. I don't have the MOD skills to correct this... Simon? :Aegis:
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes, understood. I was trying to address the same.

    I was first stating that your interpretation of kata applications was good but to me was missing the quick break variant of the techniques (e.g. applying a quick break and then a lock). To me this is more "karate" than other methods that use atemi or unbalancing.

    My later point was about applying the lock, that the bunkai should start with the "caveman" version in karate. The more complex versions (that use other parts of the body instead of the hands) are not as visible to the naked eye and require more timing and skill.
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think I fixed it.

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