Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    What would you say is an elbow lock, if these two are shoulder locks?

    Can you name a wrist lock that does not roll the elbow and then the shoulder if applied as a controlling lock rather than a break?
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Elbow locks hyper extend passed 180 degrees (arm is straight like an arm bar). Arm is not bent on an elbow lock. However, locks like kimura affect multiple joints, therefore, you can call it an elbow lock or a shoulder lock, but in reality it is both and because the arm is bent at the elbow, it is the shoulder lock that is seen first.

    As for the wrist lock, I was talking about on the ground where the ground helps to block movement in a direction. For example, the pin for Nikkyo in Aikido is similar to how a wrist lock could be applied to omoplata.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Aod7PyCKNk"]Shomenuchi Nikkyo - YouTube[/ame]

    Refer to the ground pin above and you see there is the shoulder lock but you can add in a lock to the wrist.

    The following shows the wrist lock added to what was an omoplata position:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJ2T023M4I"]Royce Gracie vs Akebono - YouTube[/ame]
  3. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    In these examples (admittedly I only watched a second of one of those vids) the wrist lock is called wristlock because of the following factor:

    1. The fulcrum point is the wrist joint.
    2. There are two pressure directions applied to isolate the fulcrum point.

    Same as Kimura.

    The vidz just aren't allowing that freedom of motion, but the technique is the same, they restrict it by isolation.

    The way the human body is formed you can start with a pinky lock, and move all the way to a spinal lock if the person doesn't resist or conversely break at every point along the way if you isolate to restrict the range of motion.

    However, if you take a hand in one hand and a tricep in another IE you put two joints into play, you wouldn't have sufficent range to break (though you could control structure) it is the decision to isolate a specific weak point that creates the power to break:

    EG in kimura you are above and below the elbow -a break happens at the elbow (as shown by the video of it at its extreme) there are many videos of elbow breaking at extremes of Kimuras, not so many of shoulders breaking (though I agree that there can be some tendon/muscle damage).

    EG in Omo Plata (where I had issues with earlier) if you hold above the elbow and beyond the shoulder - without applying pressure to the lower arm, and only moving at elbow and up, you will break the shoulder. If you apply pressure below the elbow at one end of the pressure exchange then it is the elbow that will pop.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm seeing more and more your points mattt. Not that I ever disagreed.

    My thoughts are that when you have multiple joints being locked, the place you feel it first is a fair way for cataloging the lock.

    For an arm bar, you feel it on the elbow first, so it is an elbow lock. For kimura and omoplata, you feel it on the shoulder first, so they are shoulder locks.

    From there I was trying to say that you can make it any kind of lock in a progression. kimura turns into an elbow lock. You can turn omoplata into a wrist lock.

    So that's where I'm coming from.
  5. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Cool. Where I am coming from (and it's all just perspective) is the opposite! It isn't where you feel it first, it is where you last felt it before it exploded...

    The armbar is an elbow lock because it is the elbow that will pop at full snap.

    The kimura is an elbow lock because it is the elbow that will pop at full snap.

    The Omo Plata is an elbow lock because it is the elbow that will pop at full snap (though I am still thinking on this one as mentioned).

    You can turn any of them into a Wrist lock, but to do so you have to move the points of pressure and control to isolate that joint, in which case the lock has flowed into a different technique.
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I think I'm on the fence on this one because in some ways I agree with both of you, but that's because based on the experiences we've had, our armbars do not require the arm to be straight. They used to, which made them a low percentage technique, but when I started rotating the arm from underneath before applying the bar it no longer mattered whether the arm was fully straight or bent.

    I hadn't realised how apparently unique we were in this approach.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    From our mapmeet page:

    LFD's short bio:

    By trade he's a physiotherapist so he'll be able to describe what I'm doing better than me.

    It's possible that I might be working on the golgi of the triceps, but I can find the spot by placing my thumb on the inside (not on top, outside or underneath) of my elbow at the base of my biceps, about 2cm up from the joint and and rubbing down and round back towards the triceps.

    I'm going to be out of town for a while so won't be able to report back on this for a few weeks.
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I wasnt refering specificaly to hikite. More that during most 'moves' two hands are involved through the whole process,Similar to hubud drills. There are moves within moves.
    I havnt seen it said that whole patterns are weapon based. More some things could be.
  9. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    re: karate as a weapons art: that is a relatively modern view, and one that is considered ridiculous by many people, in particular due to the fact that okinawans already have a weapons art, that being okinawan kobudo, which includes among other things knife, shield and spear work, depending on the lineage. that said, kobudo and karate, particularly lineages that are taught together in several organizations, have things in common that are done so as to create positive feedback between both styles, so the most likely reason that karate looks adaptable for weapon use is that it has technique overlap with actual okinawan weapon use.
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Not unique, I only refer to the straight arm bar as being straight in one circumstance, the others are different and can be bent, but even with the straight armbar it can be bent for the finish.

    Perhaps it would be for you and LFD to try it out with some more experienced BJJ guys with resistance, I'm sure you are doing great things as you experiment but you would probably get better guidance and material to dissect from someone with more depth in these areas.
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    hmmm, not sure I agree with the arm bar not needing to be passed straight (passed 180 degrees) for the break. In grappling, if you set one up correctly, you can do get a tap out at about 70-80 percent of the range of motion. This is temporary damage and is the "stun" that I've been referring to. This is one reason that using a break as a stun can be a high percentage move in stand-up fighting... it is a quick snap that can stun at 70-80% range of motion, instead of the 90-95 percent range of motion to actually do permanent/long term damage (break), IMHO. Range of motion refers to your range of motion, not the opponent's.

    To break the elbow with the arm bent, I don't think this is a pure armbar. I believe you need to lock multiple joints in order for this to work. I guess if you call the first one straight arm bar, you could call the latter a bent arm bar, but that just doesn't sound right to me.

    Although it is possible that the opponent can help you by jerking in the wrong way or providing momentum, effectively making it worse on themselves by tensing and locking one of their own joints. This is a situation where it is a combination of your lock/break combined with the opponent's self-injury.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Try experimenting using your outer hip bone at the fulcrum and you'll see that with an angle it still works.

    There is quite a range of angles that the elbow break at, as you move away from 180 you need other factors (such as the hip being a stronger surface than the groin/ cup area)
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'll have to do some research. I see the straight armbar as a position where it is hard for the opponent to bend their arm so you don't have to have control of their shoulder.

    The breaks to the elbow from a bent position, the shoulder must be pinned or locked in some manner, IME.

    Edit: sorry meant, the shoulder or the wrist/forearm must be engaged for a bent arm lock to apply pressure at the elbow. Again, multiple joints.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  14. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yes, I agree about the isolation necessary to address multiple joints.

    In the example I mentioned I was talking about full juji (both your legs overlapping their body) from top, using your feet and legs to crossface and control which does give isolation, however it would also work from half juji (one leg engaged, without crossface pressure from second leg) in a more seated position- you would have to use your elbow to finish rather than hands as its a lot closer- very powerful finish and it lends itself to an off 180 angle.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2013
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The reason I am fixated on a single joint "break" or lock has not to do with which is more effective as a finisher, but has to do with some of the ways I learned the applications. As I stated in previous posts, there were three ways I learned:

    1) Strike/atemi to unbalance or stun first and then apply a lock or take down.
    2) Push/pull to unbalance first and then apply a lock or take down.
    3) "break" a joint (quick snap of or attack on a joint) to stun first and then apply a lock or takedown

    The third method is the one I'm trying to address as being one of the methods employed in karate often. For instance, a quick hyper extension of the opponent's elbow, then followed by a lock or take down. Sometimes I remember just getting my fingers grabbed and twisted before being locked or taken down. My Kajukenbo instructor is very good at snapping my arm using his elbow to stun me before applying a lock... a trick I stole from him.

    The closest to this method in submission fighting I can think of is when you apply a key lock in certain situations as a set up for an arm bar.

    Since we are talking about close in fighting in karate, I wanted to make sure that this third method was not missed in the light of the more popular push/pull type and atemi methods.

    Here is the karate "roots" I learned from:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzPErd8FXyw"]Goju-Ryu Kakie (Push Hands) pt 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    And in part two you can see in some of the moves the emphasis on a quick break (turns into a lock for training purposes). The breaks in the video are obvious as they are pointed out, but there are also more subtle ("hidden") breaks that can be done along the way too that you may be aware of.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8l57jXXEUc"]Goju-Ryu Kakie (Push Hands) pt 2 - YouTube[/ame]
  16. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    It cant be ridiculus realy, especialy for karate connected to chinese/ hakka styles because most contain some kind of hubud type drill just like knife syles do. And its not ridiculus to suggest a link between chinese, filipino,and malaysian martial arts.
    I guese its a case of did the hubud drill come from knife work and then was seen to have benefits for empty hand or did it start as a empty hand drill and then seen to have benefits for knife.
  17. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    BL, if your assertion/assumption/suggestion is that karate forms or techniques or kata may have common origins with weaponed drills then it is possible but not proveable. If you had 20 years of Karate study under your belt and made these assertions I might be inclined to take you more seriously. Can you give us some concrete examples (ideally video) of where this idea has come from?
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I wasn't aware that I needed to try techniques on BJJ guys to establish their effectiveness. :) What's the difference between putting a temporary control on a resisting BJJ guy and putting a temporary control on a resisting person in a real life context, or another type of martial artist resisting you in full contact training? The video makes the use and context pretty clear. Sampsi isn't resisting because I'm demonstrating, and I'm not doing anything fully to avoid causing repeated pain or injury. The main theme of the video is showing redundancy for control failure in the event of resistance and hard contact to achieve the non resisting control where necessary.

    LFD's got more than enough experience to give feedback here on what I'm doing from a grappling and physiological perspective. I'm hoping to catch up with him in August.
  19. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You don't need to do anything you don't want to. But IMO you would get a more realistic idea of what works and what doesn't regarding control, locking etc with an experience BJJ guy.

    Same as if I wanted to check out my striking, I would pick a boxer or MT guy to test on.
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I see where you are coming from now.

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