Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Sorry about this, but when we talk about Wado and for that matter Japanese MA in general it is "Jujutsu" not jiujitsu.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2013
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    If the Uke will decide to allow shoulder control to be given over to Tori in order to prevent the lock from breaking the elbow I can see the strain happening to the shoulder - but it remains that it is an elbow breaking technique.

    If Uke does not give up shoulder control to release the pressure and instead attempted to resist the 'pain' on the elbow through brute force in the example given at the start of this thread they would be able to power out of the elbow lock rather than give shoulder control.

    This is where Grasshopper was talking of using the hand to manipulate the shoulder rather than the pain compliance of the elbow break threat if I understood him correctly.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Do you mean that you feel pain at the base of the bicep? That's where the golgi tendon is.

    With the move I am using to apply the first control, te osae uke, the golgi tendon is rubbed/rolled which causes an involuntary reaction to move away from the sensation. This movement, when the arm is held in 90 position (or greater) at the elbow, places pressure on and causes pain at the shoulder. For me this is felt more on the anterior part of the deltoid.

    The figure 4 also involves a bent arm and also causes pain at the shoulder, but the angle of attack is slightly different and the pain manifests (for me at least) further round on the posterior deltoid.

    It's difficult to self test this as both my shoulders are sore from LFD's tender work.
  4. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I think you would feel it along the same meridian line, but not necessarily just at the bicep, more likely tricep side of the arm and elbow joint.
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    How can you break the elbow when you are keeping the forearm at 90 degrees to the upper arm with no pressure that is taking it (the elbow joint) outside its normal range of movement?
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    To futher support your position, here is the most famous double wristlock (kimura? please..... :) ) that I can think of. The break is dynamic and it is at the elbow....go to 1:18 for the highlight

  7. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    In the break that was shown in the video you can see the forces at work, the fact that there are two arms other than one make a difference, but the same forces are at play.

    Of course, if you are applying no pressure you have no break, but if you have no pressure you also have no shoulder pain control in the deltoid area you were talking of earlier.

    Think of it like this.

    In your vid you had two opposing directions of force, from your upper arm raising and your lower arm/wrist/hand lowering with the fulcrum being the elbow.

    That is the same movement as the kimura, that is called a shoulder lock, but is IMO an elbow lock (the guy in the MMA fight agrees with me I think)
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    As do i (see above)
  9. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    This is where the devil is in the detail. Anyone can muscle out of pressure on the tricep, that's why this rolls from underneath onto the golgi tendon. I'm not applying force on the base of the triceps - that's low percentage - I'm attacking from the underside over and working that tendon. I've had a lot of success demonstrating the difference between the two on people much bigger and stronger than me.

    Sorry, as soon as I said golgi tendon I assumed you'd know which angle of attack I was taking on the arm. There's absolutely no comparison between pressure on the triceps and pressure on the golgi tendon - it's a game changer.
  10. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Due to the way cross posting works I've only just seen your vids Mattt and Hanibal's.

    Ref the fight vid with the break - that's not where I'm applying force (in either of my two controls), it's a very different technique.
  11. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Maybe it wasn't clear to me from your video, but it seem very much like that 'lock' was applied against the elbow/tricep side not the bicep side throughout.

    In fact, it would be impossible to rotate the shoulder forward without the pressure force come from the back of the elbow.

    Sorry, more confused by your devilish details?
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    That is where I think you misunderstand the technique and what is happening (as do the guys who call the kimura a shoulder lock).

    Is it possible you could be thinking of it wrong?
  13. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    As of course I could be...

    Let me try again to understand that pressure - you are wrapping/cupping the elbow and digging your fingers in beyond it to the pressure point?
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    My arm is on top, it may 'look' as if the pressure is above the arm, but it's not, the force is coming from underneath, rolling and trapping the golgi tendon, and it's very light. There's no pressure on the lower arm, so no pressure on the elbow joint at all.
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    It's not something you can do to yourself - I just tried. I am using the bony part of my forearm in this case to rub the tendon in the direction from the inside of the biceps back round to the triceps. It rubs on the humerus.
  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I wouldn't dream of doing it to myself!

    Now, just so I understand correctly, you would describe this as a pressure point technique on the Golgi in order to control the opponent, and this pressure point is more high percentage than trying to control the elbow as shown in the videos for Kimura etc?
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Not having tried a Kimura that way I can't say for sure.

    I can say this:

    It's a more high percentage when going for an armbar than pushing down on the arm from on top and enables smaller, weaker person to take the control regardless of whether the arm is straight or bent, so long as the arm isn't flexed inside 90 (which affects the position of the tendon).
    It can be done with one point of control and one arm along with body weight positioning as opposed to requiring two arms.

    It's only a temporary position, but those points make it an uber useful technique. I do have a video showing how to escape from it if the person doesn't take you too low with it.
  18. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    LFD and I will go through this when he next gets his hands on me. We'll report back!
  19. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Cool - what's his background?
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Looking at JWT's video again, I think he uses both the locks used in omoplata and in Kimura but at different points.

    Mattt, to my understanding both omoplata and Kimura are shoulder locks, however, the place that is locked does not mean that is the joint that will break. With Kimura, the shoulder is forced to roll back and up but the elbow is rolled forward. There is no where to go because you can't roll back on the shoulder and forward on the elbow at the same time so something breaks... the elbow joint area in many cases.

    Omoplata rolls the shoulder forward and rolls the elbow forward, so it is possible to roll out of this lock. Omoplata is often combined with a wrist lock with fingers pressured into the opponent as the wrist is rotated, so you can roll out forward except the wrist lock helps to prevent this... the end result is often a broken wrist.

    In Aikido, the shoulder rolling forward would be like in Ikkyo and the shoulder rolling back would be like in Sankyo.

    I will find the pins on the ground for another post to demonstrate how it is different on the ground in Aikido.

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