Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Ah I see.

    Well the focus is the same, on the elbow area, just the disagreement being whether the mechanics cause pain to the tendon near the elbow or the elbow joint?

    And the pain is caused by hyperextension between your own hand and elbow as hooks connecting, or something else?
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Sorry, what?

    Karate has some Japanese influences (particularly in Wado where it is a Ju Jitsu style with Karate influences IMO), but it developed from Kung Fu styles merged with Okinawan grappling and striking.
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    The pain is caused in the shoulder joint by rotation of the upper upper arm using the bent arm and the golgi tendon as a lever. The rub on the golgi tendon causes pain there, but that is a means to an end (posture breaking).

    It's easy to get a feel for on your own. Put your upper arm out at a right angle to your shoulder, with your forearm at a right angle to it pointing downwards (so parallel with your torso), palm facing backwards. Now push your hand back (as if rotating palm first upwards) and feel the pressure on your shoulder.
  4. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Ahh I see. Yeah, I understand the pain here in the shoulder, most people think a Kimura is this same as this - do you think it is the same in terms of general mechanics and where the pressure is, or different?
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Remind me, I'm not an MMA guy, the Kimura is the standard figure 4 armlock?
  6. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Sorry BL, if you're referring to the hikite motion (hand pulling back to hip as other hand punches) then I think you have the wrong end of the stick (did you see what I did there?).
    Karate certainly has principles in common with weapons defence/attack, not surprising in Wado when you consider its history and derivation from Juijitsu but the idea that Kata and their applications derive from 'weaponed' kata has been mooted before and I for one remain unconvinced.
    Take a look at Iain Abernethy's work, everytime I try to insert a youtube link here I lose the page/connection :bang:
  7. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Kimura (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu), chicken wing/double wristlock (wrestling), or reverse keylock are terms used to specify a medial keylock known in judo as gyaku ude-garami (reverse arm entanglement) or simply as ude-garami.

    Made famous by Kimura who (it is said, though surely it cannot be true) defeated Helio Gracie.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I was unaware that Okinawans had their own version of grappling and striking. I stand corrected. I believed that jujutsu from Japan influenced Okinawan martial arts back in the 16th century or so.

    The Chinese influence came later and was to form the foundation for karate.
  9. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Don't get off topic - we are talking about mma here!
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    isn't the lock JWT is using a form of omoplata not kimura?
  11. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Now we are getting somewhere!

    What is the biomechanical difference between a Kimura and Omoplata in terms of pressure direction and fulcrum points?
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    They rotate the shoulder in the opposite directions compared to each other.
  13. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    We are getting somewhere if you can post two very short vids of each of those because they are not terms I use so I can't pass comment.
  14. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Will do - gotta run now unfortunately on some errands, but certainly would like to continue this.
  15. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Just a quick question to the people discussing the entangled arm locks (ude gatami)... have you had these techniques tried out on yourselves and where do you feel the pressure?

    I treat people for elbow issues and I have to say that the elbow is one tough joint that does not get easily put into a position where it hurts/causes distress ahead of the elbow in a patient. I have to go to lengths to avoid letting the tension go to the shoulder and limit the pressure at the elbow when mobilizing. I would say that for the Americana and the Kimura that the pressure is far more at the shoulder (a far more unstable joint) than it is at the elbow.

    I know we were taught in judo that it was an elbow lock as shoulder locks are not allowed. I have to say as a practising health care professional that I find this hard to believe.

    Discussing breaks to the elbow is a bit confusing.. easy to see juji gatame or wake gatame as elbow locks as you are at the end of range. I don't really see this sort of position being achieved anatomically with ude garami (and variants) in a manner that doesn't affect the shoulder more than the elbow.

    Just my opinion. Care to give me some reasoning as to why my opinions might not be correct?

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    You could say the same of a Kimura too (as is being said here in this thread) but I would like to argue that because the contact points are different, the fulcrum point is different.

    I'll get the vids for JWT but you might already understand where I am coming from, in that a Kimura is an elbow break, not a shoulder lock as many think, even though it is often finished due to pain at the same point as this Golgi Tendon.

  17. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    You know that part of the difference is also that the japanese use one name for any lock using a certain principle where as in BJJ every variant seems to have it's own name. I don't think that anatomically there is significant differences although I would have to feel the variants to be sure...

    This is part of the fun when you try to compare techniques.. in chinese martial arts you have different names from system to system for the same tech but also you have 2-3 main languages been used sometime by the same system in a different area.

  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    There are different names, but also there are significant differences at times, and understanding helps the student be more effective at the technique. The difference between a wrist lock and an elbow lock and a shoulder lock are all quite substantial, and I think (and am attempting) to move beyond the trappings of the names and getting to the fundamental mechanics- these remain the same regardless of you language selection.
  19. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I think you have misunderstood me Mattt. I am not suggesting all locks are the same but rather all locks that use adduction/supination and flexion will have a similar effect on the elbow. It does not matter how many different names you give it there are only key places/points where the joint/ligaments are substantially weak. Calling the set up to arrive at the final position a different name does not change where the joint is locked up at.

    In the case of the elbow I see that there are possibilities for elbow locks but it seems much more likely that the set up for an elbow lock will strain/sprain/sublux the shoulder before the elbow goes(I am talking entangled arm locks and not arm bars here) This might be different in BJJ match with no time limits and no restrictions on how long you stay in one position. In judo most of the time you wouldn't be down on the ground long enough to play with the position that much..

    Just the way it seems to me :' D

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  20. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Hmm.. I am having trouble finding a 'good' vid that explains my point, and now I am wondering whether the Omo Plata is also an Elbow Lock rather than a Shoulder Lock by applying my same logic.

    For those non-MMA folk out there they appear somewhat similar techniques, though one is applied with the legs and one with the arms.
    Note, I picked a Vid called Kimura Shoulder Lock, but I think they are just misunderstanding it too...



    For me I was seeing them differently, but now I am on the fence, I'm not sure where the 'proper' position of the elbow should be in the omo plata, if the elbow connects to the leg of Tori then it is a shoulder lock, if it does not it is an elbow lock IMO.

    Lastly, why I think it is an Elbow Break not a Shoulder Break (a lock is a break that just hasn't occurred yet is also a belief for me)

    <Warning - This Vid shows the break that happens when the lock is applied, it is not the shoulder that will break, it is the elbow>


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