Karate as Infighting

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Oldi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    The way I really see that lock as being useful isn't really as a hold, but more as a throw. Whenever I train it in class it's always a short lived position used to get your opponent into the position you want them in. Including face down on the floor. Shoulder control makes for fantastic takedowns.
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Sure, if your Uke lets you control their shoulder. And these types of 'throws' aren't throws, the movement of Uke is that they ought to throw themselves in Ukemi in order to prevent the break. You should be breaking, and allowing the angle of escape to be of your choice in order to put them down.

    I just think they are a little low percentage to achieve that goal at times, though I like the theory.
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I did see that jwt. I liked the video and technique. I was more trying to point out that IME karate would emphasize the quick break as a stun rather than Aikido that could emphasize atemi followed by a lock or Judo push/pull followed by a lock. Just trying to compare methods.

    Three ways to get technique to work:

    1) Force it to work
    2) Do something to get a reaction that allows the technique to work
    3) Trick the opponent into giving you the technique

    I think that the arguments against some of the techniques are that you could not easily force it to work, but what the video is mostly demonstrating is that you are doing something (stunning or unbalancing) that gets a reaction from the uke that allows the technique to work.
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A little too much ground fighting ukemi logic, IMHO, mattt. When you have the ground or a wall or something to block movement in a direction, you can do a break very slowly as a submission to help develop good finishing technique in a safer manner. You have less variables and so you can develop more counters to what the opponent will likely do. You can on the ground block the hips from a direction, the ground blocks another direction, pressure from the top pins an area like the shoulder, this allows for escape in a predictable direction, so you can be a few steps ahead of the opponent when you have the superior position.

    When standing, however, breaks are done quickly and controlled at the end to stop before the breaking point. This lock stuns the arm (for example) and is much harder to train safely. Most people that train these breaks know each other and have been training with each other for many years to develop a kind of trust and control to not cause permanent damage. This is why these breaks aren't really developed to any degree of testing the same as submissions on the ground.

    On the other hand, you can turn a break into a throw by unbalancing instead of stunning. Then you can control it at the end to allow for ukemi. The uke is NOT escaping through a breakfall. The uke is doing a breakfall so that they can feel the full technique and allow the tori (the one performing the technique) to feel the full range of the technique. This allows for higher intensity training in a safer manner. There is no break with an escape... it is changing the method of the break to be used as throw by initial unbalance, then using the break technique to unbalance further, and then throwing using head control or arm drag for the throw. You are pretty much using leverage and gravity to force uke to go in a particular direction.

    For the bent arm lock to be used as a throw, we are mainly talking about variants of the windmill throw or Kaitenage.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
  5. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    This isn't the same perspective as mine. I don't refer to controls/holds/locks as breaks as for me a break is an accident, not deliberate. Once I've broken something I can't control so well with it and if I want to drop the person I go for more sensitive, responsive and easier targets than the joints. For me the controls are about controlling a person for moving them or a de-escalation strategy.

    As such these techniques are pressure tested to the same degree as anything else in the syllabus (though this Kata is not in my syllabus) - full speed, full power, and with heavy contact.
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Any break can be a lock or a throw. A break can be done immediately and used as a stun. A lock and throw should be preceded by a stun or unbalance first (always stun or unbalance before locking or throwing).

    If a lock is not preceded by a stun or unbalance then it is forcing the lock (which can still work) or in rare cases, it is because the opponent was tricked into giving you the lock. The latter is the best of the possibilities because the lock comes immediately and they help you to do it.
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Can you define what you mean by a 'break' here please? It might just be your sentence structure but I'm not 100% sure we're talking about the same thing.
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    A break is done as a strike to the arm like a quick snap. The break would happen when the joint that is being attacked goes beyond the 180 degree position, as an example.

    So your locking technique, done as a break instead, would be done like a strike to drive the uke's hand towards the sky and their elbow towards the ground in one quick snap. This would be a stun and you then follow up with strikes to the eyes, throat, neck, groin, etc.

    IMHO, most of the karate locks are originally breaks and not used to throw or control the opponent. Just momentarily stun with the chance of more long term damage to a joint.

    Just my opinion.
  9. Grass hopper

    Grass hopper Valued Member

    I should have clarified, the technique I'm thing about is slightly different (although along the same lines) as what was in the video. The way I as taught this movement was to have the hand controlling the shoulder, as opposed to leveraging the shoulder with your opponents arm. That gets into pain compliance territory and I've never been a fan of such techniques.
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    The lock in the vid isn't pain compliance so much as biomechanics, but there's that point where you have to capture the structure so you take the lead. Getting there using pain I agree doesn't work enough to be high percentage, and there was a touch of that in the vid, which could have been resisted. The hand on the shoulder is the same concept of extra control until you reach tipping point, and actually both are neither right nor wrong, but there are other factors such as shortening and lengthening the distance as you adjust the arm/shoulder ratio.

    Personally more kuzushi is better to make this effective and create moments of advantage to get that arm where you want it. Jwt did mention atemi as kuzushi which is valid, but the lack of aliveness in the demo did not showcase that. Not that I think he doesn't know it (based on discussion here of the techniques)just the vid was a little lacking for me in this area.

    Id certainly want to see more movement to create advantage when seeking to put a guy into that move, and keep different angles on the control, though I'd be happy to play around with these too to see what is within them.
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I find it interesting that a video showing close quarter application of karate techniques, which was designed to show an entire kata's striking sequences as redundancies for two of its possible controls, has sparked a debate about controls on a thread about whether Karate is applicable to infighting. :)

    For those of you who still haven't 'got' my intent in the video, here are two companion videos:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efxiTKgiXS8"]Nijushiho - Shotokan Karate - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBzNY2id2Ak"]Niseishi - International Hayashi-Ha ****o-Ryu - YouTube[/ame]
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks JWT.

    The particular bunkai or application for the break (rather than lock), I learned as an application for the downward block (Gedan Barai). The first part wraps/traps the arm and applies a quick break using the elbow and dropping down. The rest of Gedan Barai movement is to break the posture of the opponent and is closer to the locking application.
  13. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    Don't mean to derail this interesting discussion, but why 'esoteric' Gary?
    We practice Kumite Gata, seems fairly straightforward to me, footwork is the key! I attended a Kumite Gata course by sensei Roger Vickerman September last year in the Midlands and found his understanding of Kuzushi and the use of Tate Seishan stance to be clear and pragmatic.
    I've also just downloaded Timo Klemola's book on the subject, not sure if it's any good yet, I was not impressed by his Youtube video of the 36 Kumite Gatas, everything seemed very telegraphed and slow, certainly compared to Tony Heap.

    Sometimes I am frustrated by the whole rigid formality of the Karate system, particularly paired exercises where it can be quite difficult to see how the principles would work in reality, after all, not all muggers attack like karateka! Is this what you mean by esoteric?
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    So maybe a video would help.

    Here is the Gedan Barai movement roughly that I learned as a break:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwM7fAqN6f0"]Aoki Arm Lock - YouTube[/ame]

    Here it is at break speed (2x-3x normal speed):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k"]Shinya Aoki vs. Keith Wisniewski - YouTube[/ame]

    The difference in the above and how I learned it was that I learned to use my elbow to trap the opponent's arm to my body with the other forearm as I whip the hips and drop down. The snap of the hips is done quickly and is the force that makes the break work as a stun. Since the range of motion is smaller than the one in the video, there is less chance of an actual break but allows for a very quick stun to the joint.

    While the opponent is stunned by the break, then I could continue into the arm wrap/lock as per your video, JWT.

    I guess the difference is that I am theorizing based on my experience that you first snap the hips to break/stun and then you apply the lock in karate. In something like Aikido, you might atemi to unbalance and then apply the lock.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Thanks for the videos. I'm not convinced that the word 'break' is a good term here. What you've got is an arm bar that has resulted in a hyper-extension of the elbow joint. You can't 'break' the elbow with the golgi control because the position is wrong, though you can dislocate or tear the shoulder with that technique.

    You can't apply either the golgi tendon control or the shoulder lock on someone if you've done that unless you do so on the other arm, and even then it will be less effective because of the underlying pain caused. In fact you can't put a lock on someone's joint if you've already taken it to the point of a break because the damage has biomechanically altered its range of movement (as a result of slight tearing, immediate inflammation etc) and in pain terms the person is in constant pain even though increased pressure will worsen the sensation. LFD would be a good person to chip in on this.
  16. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    I'll pm you :)
  17. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I have seen the view that alot of karate is actualy weapon based in origin in terms of having a weapon yourself and defending against some one with a weapon. Or you have a weapon and they dont.
    This view makes sense (especialy when seeing it applied too) as most 'moves' involve two hands or actions at the same time which is essential when defending weapons and in the way attacks are applied, again two hands doing something. A punch, for example, makes no sense empty hand but is more the way you would attack with a knife. Its the same with many attacks. Hold a knife and things can make a lot more sense

    How many 'moves' are a hold or grab of some kind plus a strike at the same time or very soon after? Do it empty hand and the strike is often a joke or meant to be a lethal killer blow but theres no room to get power easily or its just a cheesy knife hand to the throat or somthing thats meant to end the fight right there. Do it with the view of using an actual knife and now it can makes sense.

    Im not saying 'this is the answer' just that for me, its a more sensible approach than some of the weird, cheesy, over compliant , applicatons you see done where people try to make a move be something that just wont work if a guys trying to seriously take your head off.
    And alot of this stuff was derived in an era where its plausable that you would be openily carrying a knife for protection.
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Just to clear something up - the Golgi you talk of is that one arm 'lock/hold' you are demonstrating in your first vid right?

    That is an elbow break, not a shoulder technique, based upon the mechanics of it. The shoulder is moving only to reduce the stress on the elbow.

    Do you agree?
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter


    I don't see that as an elbow break at all. The pressure and pain is applied on the shoulder through the medium of the lever of the arm at the right angle which in turn is achieved through the pressure on the golgi tendon.
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My terminology is based on how I was taught, so maybe there are better words. The word "break" describes the movements of a lock done at 2 to 3 times normal speed.

    I may have gone on a tangent too. My main point I was trying to make is that there are different methods for achieving the lock, which you are demonstrating in the video. I will call it a standing omoplata to compare it to a submission that most people know about from grappling and ground training.

    The method you are using, you say has influence from Aikido. I can see that in atemi to unbalance followed by the standing omoplata. If I were to use Judo method, instead of atemi (strike), I might use push and pull to unbalance and then apply the omoplata. However, there are more methods than these two mentioned... I was proposing that karate uses a third method for setting up the standing omoplata.

    This third method is the "break". In this method that I believe is closer to the original jujutsu that karate developed from, the karateka could first use a quick snap to hyper extend the opponent's elbow across the karateka's chest using a similar movement to the first part of the Gedan Barai (circular part) that looks like an inward block across the face followed by downward elbow. After this quick break that stuns the opponent's arm, then karateka could continue the Gedan Barai downward sweep and entangle the arm and apply a standing omoplata.

    I'm merely trying to add a third method into how to set up the lock by using a break/stun first. This is the method I understood as being the "karate method" opposed to Judo or Aikido methods.

    If I were to make a specific kata for the karate method, it would look like two circular Gedan Barai done in a row. The first to hyper extend the arm (arm bar) and sweep, the second to entangle the arm and apply a standing omoplata.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013

Share This Page