Kali, Escrima, Arnis Debate

There's a fairly long, often heated, educated and sometimes brilliant debate on the origin and usage of the word "kali" in FMA on the Dogbrothers forum. I thought others might enjoy it just because of the diversity of the backgrounds and opinions and how well researched or informed some were. You will have to wade through some tensions, uninformed opinions and sometimes the same things said over and over again to make a piont. But over all, I think the read is worth it.
I find myself on several sides of the debate, coming from a family that for 3 generations has fought for Filipino civil rights in the USA, helped establish the first ethnic studies program in the USA for Filipinos in the 60's and helped publish the first book written by Filipino Americans in the USA(I believe the first place anybody here saw Alibata and Babyin). And given that my father(also in the arts) is a good friend of GM Ben Largusa, I can appreciate Sunhelments statements(in the DBMA forum). We may not be able to prove the existence of the word kali, and our ancestors probably did just call it something like to chop or hit with a bolo, but the word it self provides something deeper because of what it represents as a symbol/ context of our arts and our culture. I can also appreciate guro Crafty with his, who cares, I trust my teachers, we use the word cause we like it, attitude.

I also find myself identifying with other posters. My brother(also in the arts), coming from an educators perspectives has had many conversations and debates with my father regarding whether there's legitimacy for the word kali.
So I can appreciate those searching for precedent for usage or lack there of.

And having been trained by guro's and GM's from the southern Philipines I also appreciate Question Everything(another poster in the DBMA forum) who in his posts has written things I've heard from other practitioners from Mindanao(that there is no kali in Mindanao, the word kali doesn't exist in Sulu).

It may take awhile to read(14 pages long) but I'd enjoy any thoughts you guys have on the matter. http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=193

 

What's in a name? Any other wooden stick bashed to one's head would still hurt just as bad...

 

Hello Crucible.

There are still muslim systems called "to chop with a bolo" altough the word escrima starts to get used down south. Curiously there are muslim tribes who don't practice weapon oriented arts like arnis (they learn the use of weapons through study of silat, kuntao and supring).The sama friend I mentioned to you told me there isn't anything like arnis in the island he grew up. He never heard of the word Kali.

 

There are a lot of myths surrounding the use of the name Kali to describe FMA..

Some think it is associated with the Indian Goddess of death, KALI...
another says its from a region somewhere in the Philippines.. (KALIradman or something that sounds like that.)
still others say its another spelling for the Kris blade.. kalis or something similar....

i find no evidence of this anywhere, its just a name..

But what about those who train Pekiti Tirsia and Illustrisimo Kali.. ? they call their arts like that, but their skills and moves look like eskrima, although with some modifications and variants of the same technique/moves.. quite different from the cebuano styles.

i may be wrong here, so please correct me ?

 

It's KaliS Illustrissimo and not Kali . Kalis Illustrissimo is a system of Arnis.

 

Actually Bakbakan Kali still calls it Kali, if you check out any of thier printed material like the website or any of Rey Galangs books, like Yambao's legacy. Maybe in the future they'll change it but they're keeping "Kali" Ilustrisimo for now... maybe to match Yambao?
If you search online you'll see that the other KI groups changed it to "Kalis" Ilustrisimo when they couldn't find any evidence of the word kali in the Philipines. If I find the article I'll cut and paste it. There's a photo of PG Yuli wearing a Kalis Ilustrisimo tshirt in luneta when Tatang was still alive in the Floro fighting systems forum.

 

"But what about those who train Pekiti Tirsia and Illustrisimo Kali.. ? they call their arts like that, but their skills and moves look like eskrima, although with some modifications and variants of the same technique/moves.. quite different from the cebuano styles."
Pekiti Tirsia is from Negros. It may not be cebuano,but it is visayan. And Pekiti Tirsia used to use the word arnis in there name but you'd have to ask them why they changed it. Also regarding Ilustrisimo kali, also visayan. Though Tatang was raised in Sulu he credits his father, a visayan, as being his main instructor.
I'd say the main diffrence between them what you probably think as cebauno styles (balintawak, lapunti, doce pares-all savedra influenced systems) is they don't get into the same kind of standing grappling tieups given thier intention on the bladed arts. I've been told this is because in festivals in cebu the fights would be Olisi y Baraw(stick and dagger) instead of sword and dagger, so there was leeway to develop sophisticated trapping and standing grappling skills without having your insides spilled out.

 

"Some think it is associated with the Indian Goddess of death, KALI..."

I guess anythings possible, check this out:

"Until the arrival of an Arab trader to Sulu 1450 and Ferdinand Magellan, who sailed in behalf of Spain 1521, the chiefs of many Philippine islands were called Rajahs, and the script was derived from Brahmi. Even today, the Tagalog (Filipino) word for teacher is guru.

In the archipelago that was to become the Philippines, the statues of the Hindu gods were hidden to prevent their destruction by a religion which destroyed all idols. One statue, a 4-pound gold statue of a Indo-Malayan goddess was found in Mindanao in 1917, which now sits in the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago, and is dated from the period 1200s to early 1300s. Another gold artifact of Garuda, the phoenix who is the mount of Vishnu was found on Palawan."

I don't know who the author is, or where they got they're info but I believe there's actually a gravesite of an arab trader in Sulu dated to the 1200's. Islam was in the P.I. way before 1450.

 

Okay I take it back, the first sultanate was established 1450.

 

Kris in Sulu is pronounced Keris, to some people the R sounds like an L, thus kalis.

 

However if that gives precedent for the usage of the word kali, we should be calling it kari

 

Crucible,

The group who trained me uses the word Kalis, some call it Illustrissimo arnis.
According to one of my instructors a spaniard named Pedro Cortes had a large influence on the art while Tatang Illustrissimo was in Sulu. There is some research going on the topic (even in Europe ), for instance it seems the "punta y daga" subsystem is actually clearly spanish.

 

Thanks for the info! first time I've ever heard it, actually! Don't forget the art was also once called Olisistrisimo(Olisi=stick+Ilustrisimo).

 

Kry,
Spaniard as in full blooded spaniard?

 

I am not sure wether Pedro Cortes was an insulares, peninsulares or spanish mestizo.
This man was a famous arnis master who used to work for the government, helping to pacify the area. Tatang Illustrissimo may have met him either in Zamboanga or Sulu.

 

....and people wonder why I just call what I teach "Stickfighting"

 

ah that's cebuano right?

 

I think it was coined by Yuli Romo before they came up with Kali Ilustrisimo.

Here's the quote I mentioned before from Master Romy Macapagal:

About the term "Kali"

The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years.

Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.

 

So are the terms "eskrima" and "arnis" unless I'm mistaken.

"Esgrima" is the Spanish word for "skirmish" and is used even today to denote fencing. And "arnis" (or "arnis de mano") means "harness" referring to armour. Harness of the hand. The ability to "armour" or protect oneself with one's hands.


Stuart

 

I am not talking about the terms "punta y daga" but of the sword and dagger subsystem of KI. Fellow arnisadors came to this conclusion by comparing pyd with spanish espada y daga.