(I thought this was a really interesting discussion, semantics and politics aside. Does anyone know where this discussion originate and who this "researcher" is?) from: http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=2093&view=findpost&p=65290 Here is the transcript of the intercourse between Mr. Leo Gaje Jr in italics [in quotes] re his "Kali" claim and the FMA History Researcher that questions the validity of this "Kali" claims.... ================================================= I have visited Dumaguete and I have visited Sagay for an Anthropology symposium there, although this was 5 yrs ago. Actually, all tribes around the world have been mapped out. Specific research about clans are now underway. In geography, the oceans and the lands have been mapped out. Of course, all mammals have been discovered. But, you are right about the smaller species. I'm basing my facts on linguistics, which if you follow in Philippine academics is revamping new ideas and improving older theories. The languages in the Philippines is still quite alive. Some areas might lose certain words, but these words are found in other areas. The anthropology and history dept in UP (the harvard of your country no less) are making new strides in linguistics. If you claim that your grandfather used the word KALI to mean the original art of the Philippines, then why doesn't this word show up in other ethno-linguistic groups in your country? Inosanto says he just mixed up KAmut and LIhok (words in Bisaya) to get Kali. Much like his MAPHILINDO. if Kali is a cultural phenomena, then why can't your own filipino anthropologists and linguists locate this word anywhere in the Philippines? It wasn't insult, I was just simply using logic. If your grandfather did use the word Kali for your art, then you should've used this word from the very beginning, prior to NARAPHIL. Why the switch, when you came to america, then the re-switching afterwards? And how do you explain all the Spanish words present in your system? Maybe, my source was ill informed. Forgive me for writing that, but the fact that this word still originated in the US still holds true. the Pulahanes are not tribes in the Philippines Mr. Gaje. this is an Anthropologic fact. The history of the Pulahanes are found in Mr. Ileto's "Pasyon" and Mr. Mojares' "War Against the Americans", to name a few books. They were first documented in Southern Luzon, then in Samar, Leyte, Bohol, Negros, and Cebu in the 1900s and sometime prior. they were so named for the red they wore. They were a millenarian religious group which spread during the first years of the American occupation. There is the connection I was looking for!!! So, basically it has you after having lived in America, having political connections, knowing your people will receive any American information rather easily, since colonial mentality (as Mr. Constantino has eloquently written about) is very rampant among Filipinos. Of course, when you offered the word Kali they accepted. There is no need to re-check the Inosanto connection since we already know it was in fact you, having political connections in that municipality, who named it kalikalihan. So, to recap.. You are saying that your grandfather did call his art Kali? and this is what he has called it since his grandfather's time and so on? I've also done research in Mindanao. and you are right, the blade is still very much a part of their culture there. This is also true for some tribes in Nothern Luzon. the fact that the Philippines has a pretty sophisticated fighting arts isn't my contention here. it is the title Kali and its origin. For the sake of research, I want to write a complete rendering of your people's arts (this has been done for Japanese martial arts, Indonesian, and I know fellow doing research about India's fighting arts). So far all reference to this word KALI has taken me back to the US. I have yet to find Kali in any of your nation's ethno-linguistic groups. but, I do have alot of conjectures that relate to the origin of this word (i.e. Kali is a Hindu Goddess, which is silly because the Philippines was never hindu. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in Mindanao, or Luzon, and I'm pretty sure they do not use it in the Bisayas. I have already offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman. I cannot write a book and say, Mr. Gaje, Mr. Inosanto (who has never visited the Philippines) and Mr. Largusa (himself a Filipino-American), say that Kali is the ancient mother art of the Philippines--It must be so. This would greatly affect my status as a researcher. I am not like other researchers who have come before, regurgitating information word for word from those who he has interviewed. I actually have an academic background from your country, and I have many friends there that I love. I love your nation, and this is why I am badgering you for the truth. If you feel offended, this is natural because I'm taking all that you've held true and subjecting them to questions you've never asked yourself. But, the final outcome of this research will speak fairly of the Filipino Warrior Arts for the generation of filipinos to come. Which is why i'm doing this. After we've subjected this word Kali and bombarded it with all possible attacks, if this title is legitimate then it will stand by itself. We wouldn't have to rely on "my grandfather used it, trust me, this is why it's true" evidence. Because i'm sure you already know, this is not academic. Again, I look forward to meeting you sir, to hash out further the origins of the Filipino martial arts and its history. You are correct on this, sir. But, you’ve claimed that "Kali" is the name of the "ancient art of the Philippines". So, this is not a "family" or "group" martial art anymore. If Kali is indeed the "mother art of the Philippines", then we should also be able to come across this title in other regions and among other ethnic groups. Thus far only a very few people in the Philippines refer to their arts as Kali. Of course, the bigger FMA franchises have adopted this term (although they cannot explain its origin). Why, for example, is Kali not found in Mindanao and Luzon? (although there is Kalirongan, but as I’ve explained before KA (is the prefix) lirong (is the root word) and –AN (is the suffix) Yes, the villabrille-largusa school uses KALI. I’m in contact with this group. So far, their instructors in California have not really explained Kali as well. Villabrille himself used ‘eskrima’ and ‘arnis’. Yet, it was Largusa who popularized the term Kali. Villabrille, a relative of the Illustrisimos of Bantayan Island, Cebu, switched from using ‘eskrima’ to Kali only in the 50s, which connects to Mr. Yambao’s book published in the 1950s in which he mentions the word "kali". Since Mr. Yambao was from a region in the Philippines which used "Kalirongan", there is a big chance that Kali is just a truncated version of this word. the Villabrille school have been kind enough to refer me to the island of Kaui to seek more information about the Kali connection with their school. The documented use of the word Kali with this group dates to the 50s only. I’m still trying to research, whether in the 1920s and 30s the word Kali was used in Hawaii by Villarbrille. In contrast, I have interviewed several Filipino-American soldiers in California and Washington, who have fought with the 1st and 2nd Filipino Regiments in WWII. I’ve also interviewed some who were from the bolo/guerilla battalions in the Philippines. None have heard of Kali, although they are familiar with eskrima, arnis, pangamut, panantukan, etc. etc. But you are one of these "grandmasters making a financial empire out of FMA", are you not? The biggest Filipino schools are Presas’ Modern Arnis, Canete’s Doce Pares, and your Pekiti Tersia (actually you are the biggest among these three since you are directly connected to the Philippine Gov’t). And then there are the American based schools, like Sayoc, Villabrille-Largusa, Inosanto-Lacoste blend, etc etc… How are you different from these "financial empires"? Yes, I am familiar with family arts, handed down thru generations. But, your art is the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". So, this means we should be able to see it in other groups and regions in the Philippines. Yes, I understand that there are secrets that cannot be known by outsiders. But, the fact that people have read about and known about "solomon’s mines" is the basis of my argument. If something is big, people will know. The details might not be available, but the general nature of the claim will be known. For example, Kali is the ancient mother art. This is your claim. Because it is ancient and people have handed it down for generations, then we should expect some people to atleast be familiar with this title. I would understand that the specifics would be hidden. But, the opposite instead is true with Kali. People have never heard of it (in the Philippines), yet if you tell them about your techniques and weapons, people will be familiar. When you say baston, daga, punyo, florete, etc. people are familiar, but when you say Kali, people become less familiar. So, your analogy with voodoo or magic isn’t really similar with the whole Kali phenomena, because this phenomena is the exact opposite. Yes, I realize that much information have been lost, but not all. If you say, the title Kali has been passed down in your familiy through generations, then why can’t you offer a tighter explanation? Every martial art term, in any art, has an origin. When you say punyo, we can say it’s spanish for the butt of the sword. When you say wing chun, tae kwon do, karate, krav maga, judo, eskrima, arnis, pangamut, etc etc… we can all trace these terms to a meaning and where that meaning came from. This isn’t true for Kali. Kali by itself doesn’t mean anything in any Filipino dialects. This is the reason you fall on conjectures, when you try to explain its origin. This is why you say it’s from the Goddess Kali (is this what your grandfather said?), or the word is found in the word Kalinaw, Kalipay, Kalibanga', or that people in the NPA call each other Ka’ (this stands for kasama by the way, which is comrade). These are all conjectural tangents. also, I have spoken to a relative of yours who carry the name Dekiti-Tersia. Both of you hail from the same family style, yet both have two completely different versions of your art’s title. Because according to him, the Tortals have alsways used eskrima or arnis, Kali is something new introduced by you. I understand that he or you could be wrong, but the fact that there is this big difference in title, sparks one’s curiousity. If this word Kali has been lost then how did you or your family come to use it? If your answer is that it’s been passed down through the generations, then why can’t you provide its etymology and it’s meaning. When I say meaning, I do not mean merely saying, "Kali is a philosophy of the ancient Filipino warriors". When I say meaning and origin, I mean for example: wing chun came from the name of it’s originator, or eskrima is the filipinized spanish word to mean fencing, pangamut comes from kamut or hand in Bisaya, and they mean this... etc. Yes, by word of mouth. Information is transferred by word of mouth or in writing. If you claim that Kali is transferred thru word of mouth, then why can’t you explain its origin and meaning? The word kali is not a secret anymore, yet you still cannot offer a sufficient answer about its origin and meaning. This is true. But you will pick up words like Hilot, Barang, Mananambal, Arbolario, Lanag, Orasyones, and Antin-anting. I learn of all these in Siquijor Island. Granted I wasn’t able to find out the specific details of these occult arts but the overall concept and meaning are available, although the secret details aren’t. But the opposite is true for Kali. We can’t figure out the meaning of this word, the general concept/title, but once you go inside your art words like espada, daga, fondo, abecedaria, florete, etc are very familiar since they are the same words used in eskrima and arnis. But, you are on film, the internet, tv, newspaper, magazine, and radio. And you have taught your techniques to europeans, asians, and americans. Yes, but why aren't other Ilongos, at the very least, familiar with this term? Yes, he is cebuano. But no other cebuanos use this term. Although his cousin Illustrisimo, uses the word Kalis for his art. But, he doesn’t say it’s the "Ancient Mother Art of the Philippines". His Kalis is related to Keris the sword in Mindanao, since he learned most of his art in Zamboanga. If the "philosophy of Kali" was extinct, how did you or your family come to rediscover it. And why can’t you explain the meaning of Kali and its origin? You can’t really say that your cliche expression "we choose life not death" is a philosophy. This is common sense, anybody would choose life over death. It is basic human survival instinct. And you can’t really say eskrima and arnis are without philosophy. When you say this, you’re saying that the WWII veterans I have spoken to, who have wielded their bolos and swords in actual combat in the Philippines, have no philosophy because they were not familiar with the title "Kali". Again, why can’t you provide a better explanation of this title? If you say that this word has evolved since, then we should still be able to figure out its meaning, like the words Hilot, Barang, Lanag, Anito. These are all pre-spanish words by the way, yet many filipinos are familiar with these terms, although not its details. Basing your initial research on other people’s research is what you’re suppose to do. This is the academic process. Now you are saying it’s not the pulahan (first, you said "it was the pulahan tribe"), it was actually the karul-an tribe who were accepted among the pulahanes. The pulahan as you’ve explained used the word Halad, before you changed it yourself. Halad means offering in Bisaya. Records indicate that the municipality of Salvador Benedicto is composed of about 60% Bisaya (cebuano) and about 40% Ilongos (hiligaynon). This is from the census. My question now is, did the populace of Benedicto use the title Kali, or did they know about it, before you introduced it? Were they even remotely familiar with this term and its meaning? Yes it is political, if the populace didn’t use this title to begin with. This is what you call an Introduced Cultural concept. Very much the same with what christian missionaries do when they visit non-christian tribes and introduce foreign concepts, thus yanking them out of their already established cultural traditions. Also Kali is not a custom or a set of beliefs, unless you can explain how it is a custom or set of beliefs, besides just saying that "in Kali, we choose life not death, and health over sickness, etc etc.". This is not philosophy, this is just a collection of cliches. You will find the same "sayings" in Tai Chi, Chi Gong, or Karate. What you did was merely introduced the "kali is the ancient martial arts of the Philippines" concept, which was your own. They were not using Kali prior to you. But, making up a word "to honor ones past glorious days" is suspect since the rest of your art’s terminology is still very much related to other arts that use the title eskrima and arnis (like seguidas, florete, abecedario, baston, orasan, etc.) I’m not saying there’s no Indian influence. We all know of the Vishayan empire. But, to make an assumption that Kali refers to the hindu goddess is somewhat of a stretch, because Hindu as a religion never really established itself in the Philippines. If it did then we should also see the Gods, Shiva, Ganesh, etc etc of Hindu represented. It is fairly common for cultures to borrow words from others, but it is unheard of for names of Gods to be borrowed without actual religious conquers. Examples of religious conquerings are the Moros of Mindanao, there is plenty of Arabic liturgical terms present because there was an actual Islamic foothold in this region, this was never true for Hindu. another would be the Spanish catholicization. Further, saying Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish in origin, and that this is the reason Kali is used, because it is Indian, is not logical. Because Kali would still be just another conqueror’s term, much like the Spanish eskrima and arnis. I have yet to have read this about actual sanskrit writings in the Philippines. When you say actual sanskrit, you are referring to the writing system in India. Many scholars have compared the Baybayin alphabets to actual sanskrit Alphabets, and although there are stylistic similarities, they are totally different. The K in sanskrit does not look anything like the K in Baybayin, the filipino alphabet on the Katipunan flag. Kali is found in many words like Kalinog, Kalipay, when in fact KA is just the prefix and linog and lipay are the actual roots, etc etc). so far, only American Filipinos or Filipinos who have visited the US use the title Kali. They do not use it in offered you the updated studies of the "bothoan schools" or the code of Kalintaw. You can check this at UP Diliman. As I’ve explained, "Kali" is not the root of these words you keep bringing up. Linog, linaw and lipay are the roots, earthquake, calm and happy. When you add the prefix KA, it becomes an abstract concept. This is basic filipino grammar. Kalibang means diarhea in bisaya. Libang is the act of taking a crap. So, "kali" is not the root. To make connections into these syllables would also be to say that California and Calistenics and the town Calisco in Mexico are related to the "ancient Philippine martial arts". Kali as I have explained is not the root. Ka is merely a prefix in the words you’ve mentioned. And this is what I, along with other researchers, are doing. Instead of relying on conjectures and empty rhetoric, and collections of cliches, we are trying to figure out the origins of these cultural phenomenons in the Philippines. On a side note, one of the anthropology Phd candidates in UP that I contact regularly in matters of terminology is himself T’boli from Mindanao. And I have asked him about Kali in his culture, and he informed me that this word is just not found among his people. Hopefully, I can do more research. But, there is still so much to learn about your nation. Well this is what I’m doing, sir. I’m using the information already gained by others, and from them I am making my own discoveries and conclusions into the origins of Filipino martial arts and other cultural realities. the is the academic process. exactly, because people are "fallible", this is the reason we have to keep on comparing facts and theories and providing evidence for everything we claim. With your help and others, I will be able to write a complete account. I don’t want to follow what other researchers of Filipino martial arts have done, we both know that the written works thus far are great examples of mediocre research. So, please bare with me and we will get to the bottom of this. Thank you once again.
You're just bluffin' with your muffin. I guess no one knows who this "researcher" is. But simple googling of this "discussion" points to the earliest post in a Dog Brothers forum about Kali in 2004. Here: http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=193.150 I doubt it is even GT Gaje. Maybe just some bored chap from the University of the Philippines, who made himself busy by cutting and pasting a whole "discussion". :woo:
Would you have a link to this "balintawak" forum? I doubt that GT Gaje himself had a long discussion with an "unknown researcher" on a "balintawak" forum which has no link. Maybe a bored UP Diliman fine arts student took various quotes from GT Gaje available online, spiced it up a bit for his benefit, then posted it on a "balintawak" forum for some gullible individuals to take as a "discussion" with GT Gaje. Frankly, I think that GT Gaje has no time to sit and "discuss" with an "unknown researcher" on the internet. It would be like a mentally retarded teenager talking to Da Vinci.:bang:
Can you tell me if it's the same "cut and paste" discussion, Manny? Is the unknown researcher named? Is it actually a discussion between a researcher and GT Gaje? I'm not saying this researcher sounds retarded, just that he doesn't know much, yet pretends to know more than GT Gaje. I have my doubts of course.
