Kajukenbo "The original MMA"

Hi,
I have been wanting to discuss some of the information in this book for some time. I think it is a good book, and the preface is a very honest evaluation of the complexity that has happened in the time frame about the evolution of the Art.

What really is apparant is how fast Professor Chow and Sijo A. Emperado advanced themselves in rank. If it was done today they would be put in the same catagory as some who have done it in No. Americas also. But it was a different time and place. Now there is much more material to learn for advancement. But, when you have so many that are GMs from one organization it is hard to follow.

The Tree is a very good one also, it is pretty complete and a great effort my congratulations to the person who keeps it up. Big job.
I am not an expert in anything regarding the world of MMA just a student. I am seeking information and giving mine to others.

Many feel that it is always open season to attack the book of J. Mitose and his art (which many have mentioned was the start, some agree, some don't). Since Thomas Mitose was in and studied both of the arts of what I am mentioning we can also include that, if you like.

We have been doing a pretty good job of being able to converse within reason I have noticed. I think if we would discuss this openly and pointedly you would start to see some things that are not quite as correct as others like to point out. Or it is correct and others are wrong?

If it is done civily and correctly I am thinking it will be a good subject for discussion.

Anyone read this book yet? I have a copy and I really am glad it was written. My best to the writer. I will be looking for another to follow. Hopefully within 5 years. The reason I mention another, is there is plenty of information about some very good people that came out of the art and became GM's.

You could almost do a similar thing as Tom Bleeker did regarding "The Journey" (Ed Parker people and their stories). I think it is a start (this book Kajukenbo the original MMA) to keep it going will be interesting to see how it plays out. IMHO


The tread has many items we can discuss, so it will be easy to stay on topic. We will see how it flows. Or not

Regards, Gary

 

I have my signed copy in my office. Pretty book. I like pictures.

 

Yes it is filled with picture's, many of the people who are in the book have good stories to tell also. Why I think a book like "The Journey" is one that is really something that could be very beneficial to the history of the art.

Gary

 

I've been around since I was a little kid. I have heard more stories than I can remember. Some stories I have heard multiple times. Funny thing happens over time, the fish gets bigger! The stories change here and there. Become more embellished - especially if there is a lady present when the story is told. Some stories that I have heard I will take to the grave anyways. Not that they would get anyone in trouble, but that they just aren't for public consumption because they put either the teller or the subject in a bad light.

I like how the book is a written history. Stories are great, but how much of these stories are true will always be in question. I could see one person writing a compilation of different stories and it would be interesting.

 

If Kajukenbo is MMA, then my chunky peanut butter was labeled wrong as smooth.

 

How is it not MMA? It has striking, kicking, grappling, weapons, etc? Now, does it have as much BJJ-style grappling as many MMA practitioners use today--that depends on the school and the instructor.

 

"MMA" no longer means "a mix of martial arts". It is a system unto itself, IMHO. Much like JKD which once rejected "styles" and then solidified into a style itself, so has "MMA".

So, Mr. Bishop's sub-title implies the original definition of "Mixed Martial Art"


I like the book, in fact I am using the fist formation described in the book with much success.

 

I believe the title is a good one and very true. The name mentions a various number of arts, so it is a mixture of Martial Arts.

As far as stories and the biggest fish type mentality or as the drinking gets heavier, as Dan T mentioned some like to tell the big ones for the women. That will only catch up with you, and not a good thing IMHO.

One of the reasons for putting it to paper, and in a book it is then pretty much what it is, of course all of the war stories are not needed, just the Bio's and who they trained with etc.. So many GM's it has to have some information to show why and how they got it?

Gary

 

Wow...did you actually get my peanut butter joke?

 

MMA mixes ranges
Kajukenbo mixes styles

I love peanut butter

 

Sure I think I got the joke, mixing ranges is now where you are coming from I am understanding you in regards to the various ranges and I believe Kajukenbo has them all in one package. You can embellish one way or the other.

FMA has a lot of various things that are under its heading. It is truly a mixed bag also. It is in Kajukenbo too.

Ju is for Judo or Ju Jitsu or Ju Jutsu which can also be a little bit of all the others

Gary

 

I love peanut butter too. Does Kaju not mix ranges as well?

 

Well now, that depends on which school you train in, and under what instructor.

 

Id say its not MMA at all. MMA does usually bring up the standard BJJ + Muay Thai + Wrestling + Judo. Its more then that though. Its a training method. Its the ultimate form of Randori that I can think off. You can practice any martial art and still do MMA. Of course its hard when the place your at doesnt like it. If you practice Kaju, you could only call it MMA IMO if you sparred under MMA rules. If you use your Judo to its full extent, then all the various striking youll be MMA to me. Just a willingness to spar and train and get better. Of course certain arts are better for this because they have streamlined technique safe for randori, much the same way Jigoro Kano did with Judo throws and locks.

Get it?

 

A smooth transition of all ranges trained live is what is necessary. I can learn Boxing and Jiu-Jitsu, but all I will be is a boxer and Jiu-Jitsu fighter. Perhaps I'll have success in MMA, but chances are I'll need to learn how to bridge those ranges and create with a fluid and solid gameplan. Pre-choreograpghed techniques where you strike the guy a number of times while he just stands there is not conducive towards that goal.

That is the defining difference. Learning techniques for the ground, and learning techniques for standing, and learning techniques in the clinch does not an MMA fighter make. Putting it together and acknowledging that fighting is nothing more than a game with numerous facets and goals that you must get better at is key.

When I see stuff like this, I don't think Kaju is MMA, but rather something closer to Kenpo http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7852329587671172996&q=kajukenbo&hl=en

But this is not all the schools, hence why I said it depends where you train and under whom.

 

Kempofist;

That is a good dvd and has lots of show and tell. I believe the thing that is important to the viewer is that the person who has been the uki is also doing the techs on the others also. Which means they can fight back and spar and move etc..

When showing a tech in BJJ or any other grappling art they show you with a person that is not trying to fight you or at least not giving 100% to ward you off.

The end result is at the tournament or UFC events. Or where ever the contest is. If you were to watch boxers train and spar you are going to see a different set of rules than in the ring the night you paid to see it.

I am not sure how much time you have in to Kempo, but it is a good art, one that is old and well used. Some say it predates Japan and comes from Korea and China. (Secrets of the Samurai page's 360-369) It was and is in many arts. Like I mentioned MMA now is a fighting form of many arts and they are very mixed.

Yes it is important to remember it is the school or the teacher. But Joe Lewis learned an Okinawan art and was in the Marine Corps, when he fought and won it was he that did it and all he knew to win. If it was just one kick and one strike it got the job done. Shorin Ryu is "Kempo".

Kempofist: Lets talk about the book have you read it?

Gary

 

The video is definately not the Kaju I do. I think it comes from Angel Garcia's lineage - the guys in the video are representing Kajukenbo France or Belgium. Garcia is from the same tree branch as myself, but we are night and day in how we do things.

Here is more of what we do - me and the beginning teens. They were getting uppity. My Kaju:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZHfwLkFgTo"]YouTube[/ame]

It is great that they work patterns. I don't do the patterns anymore. I think they are good learning tool, but eventually, you should drop the patterns and only train in aliveness. What Kempofist and GIJoe are saying is that they don't mix the styles and ranges against resistance the same way current MMA does. Yes Kajukenbo is a mix of different martial arts. The book is not mislabeled. However, if you are looking for what people today think of as MMA, you won't find it in most Kajukenbo schools. You will find the pattern training along with some point fighting - or maybe a slight variation.

Yes it is a good art. I am not sure about the dating. It isn't important anyways how old an art is. It could be 5 years old, as long as it works I am happy that it is here. However, there are some that believe that just because you mix the techniques and do them fast against a non-resisting opponent, that you aren't training to your fullest potential. Some even believe that you are fooling yourself if you don't train against fully resisting opponents.

Again, drills are great. They aren't fighting. Prof. Bishop's book is not mislabeled. It is a true statement.

 

Fair enough.

 

No I haven't read Bishop's book Gary. But that won't stop me from busting his chops till he finds me and busts my lip :Angel:

 

I can't speak for the other branches, but at least in WHKD, we tend to a lot more continuous/MMA style fighting than point fighting. We don't typically elbow and knee with newer people until they gain enough control to not go full contact during sparring. The amount of ground work is really dependent on who is there and their personal fighting style. We do the pattern training as a way to teach the techniques, but (theoretically) everything gets tested through sparring.