see there you go again Chris , maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But you state it in an authorative definite way, Have you seen every scroll hatsumi sensei owns? Or know every bit of knowledge he has learned? Just sayin... Maybe my sentence to Dean was Accurite ! It comes from hatsumi I did notice you quoted my happy new year wish, so you could deliberately ignore it, thanks!, see that's another annoying thing, you bag out the bujinkan left right and center all over the Internet (check the post above my first one) and thats supposed to be all good, and when a few opinions about your org. Is mentioned you get all huffy and act like your the victim.
Hi skuggvark , I missed this post must have xposted. I've been harping on about the young lady speaking to several people in the ninjutsu section I had in mind, for an alternate view on these matters, as she was being given information on bujinkan related matters, in absolutes, from an outsider with no connection whatsoever with the bujinkan. Although being knowledgable, sometimes a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I don't claim to know too much about the bujinkan, which is why i'm careful as to what i will say, but what I do know is it often looks easy from a glance but the more it is studied from the correct sources, the true nature of how difficult and layered it actually is becomes evident! So many people have been quick to get a nodding acquaintance with it, think they've got it, and then proceed to empire build filling in the blanks as they go. But sadly they havn't got any kihon, the magic ingredient ! The hardest thing to learn. 20 + yrs and every kata under the sun later won't make a difference, it will still be bad. This will ofcourse be transferred to the students who become teachers and so on, everyone blind as to how bad they are, as their all traing hard to be as bad as their teacher, and from that perspective it looks good/ normal. No need for cool aid there, ignorance is cheaper and works just fine! I was pretty sure, being unsure was the correct answer to Deans question, maybe someone can keep the egg they tried to put on my chin for themselves.
Well... I suppose I'll have to be grateful for the point. Hmm. I'm a little unsure how Darren got "closest" when his answer was included in mine, and mine had more additional (and, accept it or not, correct) information. Oh, well. It's cause he's in the right "group", yeah? I haven't heard Gyokko being associated much with Jutte, nor any of the other Toda-related schools, and honestly, I think that's for pretty good reason. Namely that Jutte doesn't really suit the postural or tactical approaches of those Ryu, nor does it match the historical claims of them, so it would be rather unlikely that they contain Jutte methods historically. To my mind, at least. The closest I can think of is that some Jutte methods could have been brought in from Masaki Ryu, which is where the chain work comes from, which Hatsumi learnt from Nawa Yumio, and that is associated with Gyokko due to it's connections to flexible weaponry. Oh, and it's the Kukishinden Ryu. Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, to be accurate. There is Tessen and Sensudori taught in Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu at higher levels which will certainly share a number of similarities, but I'm not familiar with any mention of Jutte there. No, it wasn't, but reading back I can see how that sounded. My apologies for that, I didn't intend to imply anything of the sort. More that writing down an answer I didn't think would do much good, and wouldn't cover enough, and, as you're relatively local (an hours flight away), if you were in town at any point, I was saying that I'm up for a get together to answer anything you'd want. Or, I'm in Sydney a couple of times a year, as an alternative. See, now this is where it gets tricky. I'm not even talking about any particular organization or teacher being "better" than one or the other. But it should be made clear as to what exactly is being done "properly", before such a discussion can be genuinely entered into. Which gets back to my first responce to your first post... are they actually getting anything that is real Juttejutsu? Or are they getting a creative expression of something else which might include a Jutte at some point? If the former, cool. If the latter, what's the point in sending Rottunpunk to talk to someone who hasn't really seen anything themselves? For the record, though, I've seen some rather odd things being put out as the actual Jutte material as well... by people who have a "proper connection" and all. No, it isn't. Not unless that free sample was then taken to another market, perceptually distorted, and sold as something it wasn't. Stolen is correct, and used without consent is also correct. But I really don't need to keep revisiting the attempt made, it missed, and isn't that much of a big deal. Are you saying there are other videos, then? I'll say that I'm not aware of any posted anywhere online... and I don't tend to allow videoing of the classes. No, you missed the point. It has nothing to do with whether or not the attacks were good, or bad, it's that they were stupid. They were ill-advised. They were indicating a complete lack of awareness of the situation, combative reality, the opponent, themselves, and more. They were like giving an attacker a loaded gun and turning your back. They were the types of attacks that never show up in any traditional art, because the attacker that attacked in that fashion would be killed while the defender laughed at how stupid they'd been. Take the first one. It's obvious that Hatsumi is wearing a sword... so his attacker grabs his chest, and his arm so loosely that there is not even an attempt made to stop Hatsumi from accessing his weapon. That's just asking to be cut to pieces. Or the second. It wasn't anything about the punch being good, or bad, or anything. It was that he had both long and short swords on him, yet, from a distance, attacked with a punch that was easily seen and avoided, and only served to bring his own weapons into reach of his opponent. Again, this is just asking to be killed. With your own weapons, which is just downright embarrassing. This isn't a matter of second guessing possible attacks, it's about having an attacker who actually poses a threat, rather than just being a dummy for target practice. Again, the enemy isn't an idiot. Here, they are. This is not something found in any of the Ryu's methods. You're missing the point. I'm not saying anything about their skills, or abilities to move, or anything of the kind. I'm saying the basic set up, the attacks they're choosing to go against, are combatively pointless, making whatever they do rather redundant (as a martial arts method). And, if those attacks are happening because it's the instructors asking for it specifically (as in the case of both the Hatsumi examples shown), then no, training in a class under them would likely not change my mind. After all, it's things like this that have me questioning what exactly Menkyo Kaiden in particular arts has to do with anything, when what's shown contravenes such arts in the first place. No, the kihon gets you used to weapon manipulation. The kata get you trained in weapon use (application). Kihon without the kata means you can hold it and stand, and do some basic strikes, or whatever the weapon dictates. Kata means you know and understand the principles of the weapons usage and context. Kata without kihon is impossible, but Kihon without kata is calisthenics. It's an exercise program, not a combative one. I questioned what would actually be encountered by asking the Bujinkan membership here, Darren. And I think I've explained my reasoning pretty clearly... you've even agreed with it, or at least, supported my take on it. As has Skuggvarg here. Telling Rottunpunk to talk to the Ninjutsu guys when you can't even say that there is any real Jutte taught might be something that can be questioned, wouldn't you say? I mean, we constantly argue against people going to karate schools to learn about sword, even if the instructor uses one in the classes, as there really isn't any understanding of the weapon itself, why is this different? Right... Sure. Really? Firstly, Hatsumi has a hell of a lot of scrolls of systems he has absolutely no experience with, so listing everything he has doesn't really seem relevant, don't you think? As far as knowing every bit of knowledge that he has, I honestly feel that he is presented as having a lot more than he really has, for a range of reasons. But "maybe your sentence was accurate"? You mean where you said "It comes from Hatsumi", with nothing else? Seriously? After I'd already detailed that amongst other aspects? "All over the Internet"? Really? You do realize that I had more of a reputation for being very even handed, even supportive of the Bujinkan, yeah? But as it seems to be that whatever is said from myself, even though it is almost never able to be corrected, is taken as incorrect simply due to the detail that we are no longer part of the Bujinkan... And there weren't "a few questions". Questions I welcome. There were attacks that had no place in the discussion. "No connection" to the Bujinkan? I wouldn't say that. No current political connection, yeah. But it's not like I'm discussing systems I have no experience in, or an organization I've never dealt with. Seriously, this idea of "you left, therefore you couldn't have possibly got anything" is ridiculous. Not to mention downright arrogant, elitist, and frankly, delusional. So you're happy to say you don't know what you're talking about, but are happy to question someone who's academic credentials aren't being questioned over details of an academic nature? Seriously? Oh, and ignorance is fine up to a point. If you've been around anywhere close to 10 years, and you're still not sure what is or isn't in the system, you might want to pay more attention. As far as the diatribe in the middle of that about kihon and kata, I'd suggest you've completely missed the point of what kata are about... but then again, I'd say you're far from alone in that as well.
Chris, Are you saying that kukishinden ryu contains no juttejutsu? Or are you saying that it exists, but that section is not taught in the Bujinkan?
Gapjumper, I think he tried to say the opposite. In my post I mentioned I was a bit unsure if the juttejutsu was from Kukishinden or Kukishin Ryu (being away from my notes) and Chris replied that it was the Kukishinden (which is probably correct). No problem there. / Skuggvarg
Thanks for the clarification and while I remember, thanks for the nice clip on juttejutsu you posted earlier. / Skuggvarg
So Chris did say "Oh, and it's the Kukishinden Ryu. Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken, to be accurate. There is Tessen and Sensudori taught in Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu at higher levels which will certainly share a number of similarities, but I'm not familiar with any mention of Jutte there." Which seems to suggest that Chris believes that Kukishin/Kukishinden ryu contains no jutte if I am reading it right. As for gyokko/jutte I have not heard of such, but do not understand why the movements would be unsuitable. Can anybody enlighten me? What specifically would make gyokko ryu incompatible with juttejutsu?
Did a little HNIR jutte kihon with Iwami-soke a few years back. It seems he considers it a continuation of kodachi seiho as a lot of the movements are very similar indeed.
Okay, some clarification. No. Yep. Not quite. Skuggvarg wasn't sure if the five kata were from the Kukishinden Ryu or the Kukishin Ryu (as he said, separate schools... although things actually get a fair bit more complicated than that...). My comments were that "It's (from) the Kukishinden Ryu. Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken to be accurate (contains the Jutte material). (In regards to the other school) There is Tessen and Sensudori taught in Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu (which is not part of the Bujinkan line, and is not a reference to the Dakentaijutsu) at the higher levels (etc)...". So, there is Jutte in Kukishinden Ryu (Bujinkan), but I'm not aware of any in Kukishin Ryu (not Bujinkan). Does that make sense? Look primarily to the postural concepts and history. Officially expand them, no. However... Okay, so if it's from Hatsumi, without a basis in other sources, what would make it authentic Juttejutsu? Again, I'm employing the same criteria used when we come across a self-made sword system or similar here... why would something Hatsumi is making up without basis in actual usage of the weapon pass muster when the others don't? Really? Where would you say it's from, then? Hmm, I don't remember saying anything about Togakure Ryu Kodachi... but, if we're bringing that up, there are certain traits to all Togakure Ryu weaponry that Kodachi doesn't fit... and as far as Koto not being likely to have Jutte in it, the context of the system is rather separate from one where Jutte would be found. The most likely other system would be Takagi Yoshin Ryu, when examined closely, as it contextually fits in there. In fact, I'd be surprised if it wasn't a part of Takagi Ryu at some point. Not a problem.
Cool. And makes a lot of sense (same in Kukishinden Ryu, when all's said and done, as I indicated in my first responce).
Can you explain what you mean? Are you hinting at them being too short or it not being very "ninja" to use such weapons??? Regards / Skuggvarg
Yes, it would. But that's not what's being suggested or said. It's being said that it comes from Hatsumi himself, not that Hatsumi is a conduit for it coming from one of the Ryu (or more). Add to that comment your description of Hatsumi presenting waza using Jutte, but not Jutte waza (by just picking one up for whatever reason and saying "here's something you can do with this", or words to that effect), and we're not getting an image of Jutte coming from anything other than Hatsumi playing in the moment. For what it's worth, the same can be asked of a large number of other things he shows. Yes, flexible weaponry (including Kusarijutsu in various forms) are connected, or associated with Gyokko Ryu, but that's not the same as saying that that's where the weapon comes from (in the Bujinkan... because it doesn't). The connection is due to a number of things, including the association with Kyoketsu Shoge, as it is said to have been developed by Hachiryu Nyudo, who was the teacher of Hakuunsai Tozawa, founder of Gyokko Ryu. There is no mention of Kusarifundo being part of Gyokko's methods. Additionally, Hatsumi has not lifted kata from Masaki Ryu for the Bujinkan, as he seems to not like such approaches, but he has taken a lot of very similar traits from it... every time I've seen Kusarifundo in the Bujinkan, whether Hatsumi or anyone else, there's really no denying that it came from Masaki Ryu. The design of the weapon, the mechanical approach, the preferences of application and more all point to them being either the same, or so closely related it's impossible to ignore. No, you need to look at what the basic, underlying reasoning for all of Togakure Ryu is... which the Taijutsu fits perfectly, as does the weaponry, in design, origin, usage, and more. Kodachi just doesn't really fit. That doesn't mean you couldn't use one, or that they weren't used in some circumstances, but there's a reason there isn't Kodachi kata... as well as there being reasons there aren't striking defences in the Taijutsu.
Oh now I think I see what you meant by the gyokko ryu/jutte thing. Out of interest is your gyokko ryu/togakure ryu etc from Hatsumi via Roy, or other x-kan source? If other x-kan, is it direct or indirect?
Well, its your opinion. Im of another opinion. I think there is kodachi in Togakure. I have my reasons to think so. Regards / Skuggvarg
Except I'm not questioning if any of the Ryu have Jutte, in fact I gave the Ryu, section, number of kamae, number of kata, presence of ura gata, and so on, right at the beginning, I'm questioning whether or not it's being presented, or if what is being presented as Jutte is really just whatever Hatsumi is coming up with at the time. Which is what you suggested. In the end, it doesn't matter if every Ryu has Jutte if it's not taught, does it? I mean, if you want to talk to me about the kata being taught, and that being a reason to talk to Bujinkan membership about usage of Jutte, go for it. But so far, no one has been able to do that. Which, honestly, I find really interesting... especially as I've been waiting for someone to bring up 2002, when the theme was Juppo Sessho, and the kata used to explore were the Kukishinden Ryu Kodachi and Juttejutsu ones. Of course, what was used were variations and interpretations, which varied wildly, so I would be hesitant to look to that, and what was used to explore wasn't Jutte, but Kunai, but hey, it's the best example you could have given. But the point is that the question was whether or not actual Jutte methods were taught, using Jutte, commonly in the Bujinkan. And the answer has been "no". From yourself, from Darren, from everyone. So I'm not really sure why I'm being argued with about it... oh, well. And, if what's being taught is not really Juttejutsu, but variations and play within Taijutsu, occasionally happening to utilize a Jutte, how is that actually the same as saying there is experience in training with Juttejutsu? Actually, it's not. It's the same as the one used by Masaki Ryu, but not the same as found in Kiraku Ryu, Meifu Shinkage Ryu, or others, nor is it the used the same way. It isn't like a number of other chain weapons used for similar purposes in other Ryu either, such as Konpi, Kusariryuta, Mijin, Kusariuchibo, Tamagusari, or others. As in formal kata for the weapon? Based on what?
I asked this question some time back. So you ARE of the opinion that the 5 kata you mentioned are not taught in the Bujinkan? Interesting? Was it just that nobody was following that closely? You may be reading too much into it. Did anyone answer no? Are you saying that, as an example, kirinohitoha is not taught with a jutte? Or are you saying this is just a kunai tehnique adapted to jutte? I see it taught...plenty. They all look pretty uniform across the Buj IME. Though granted many Buj dojo may not teach it (or maybe some other weapon(s) at all.) Seems a rather sweeping statement. Have you trained at a Bujinkan dojo lately? Possibly I may be missing the point you are making entirely though. Are we talking kusarifundo now? I'm not sure this thread is the place for this. The OP probably has little interest in these matters.
I'm of the opinion that, due to a lack of emphasis on learning the kata in such a manner, from Hatsumi on down, when they are taught, there is a lot of confusion, contamination, and so on that goes along with them. I have a video of a senior Bujinkan instructor teaching Kukishinden Ryu Jutte, for instance... all 6 of the 5 kata. He gets a henka of one of them confused with being a different kata altogether, combines two into one, misses the point of another two, and does a couple of things that aren't in the techniques... mainly as they'd get you killed. I've seen others teach things that have no place in the kata, and others ignore the properties of the weapon when teaching them. No, I don't think so. I mean, I've been asking this since the first page... to not be following that closely is to have not read anything written. Without actually saying no, yes, they have. There are no Kunai techniques. It's the first Jutte kata. And, as for uniformity, I've seen quite noticable differences in a range of performances of it... including Hatsumi's, for the record. Here's the question, though... is it being taught as a way of learning Jutte, or is it being taught as a way of performing Taijutsu with a Jutte? The vast majority of times I see it, it's the latter. But no, I haven't trained at a Bujinkan dojo recently... I do still have a range of Bujinkan (and ex-Bujinkan) friends, though, and discussions do happen... Yeah... it's kinda gone off rails a bit...
