Santa gave me a Jutte/Jitte for christmas These are taught quite late on in HNIR, and no westerners that i know of have been taught the kata yet. I did find some koryu stuff on youtube, but in some cases 2 are used (e.g this one [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeaU91MtV8"]Shinto Muso Ryu- Ikkaku Ryu Jutte jutsu - YouTube[/ame] where the first 2 kata look as though it is used much like a kodachi) Does anybody on here practice with them?
Yeah, the Kukishinden Ryu (Bujinkan) contains Jutte as the higher level methods taught in the sword methods (Kenpo, Kodachi, then Jutte, basically reducing your range, then reducing it more and removing an edge to your weapon, making things harder as you go...). There are five kamae and five kata taught (with Ura Gata methods as well), but that's it. The Jinenkan's Jinen Ryu (created by Manaka Unsui in the mid-90's) also contains a fair bit of Jutte, essentially basing it on the Kukishinden and Kukishin Ryu Hanbo and Jutte methods, as well as some Kodachi methods from what I've seen (which is most of the material, really). It's also taught in Takenouchi Ryu, Kiraku Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu etc, then there's variations such as Nobete taught in Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (kind of like a long jutte without a tine, so a long baton, really, with a wooden Kodachi being used as a substitute in some demonstrations). As to the Ikkatsu Ryu clip above, as I'm sure you're aware, that's one of the assimilated Ryu-ha taught along with Shinto Muso Ryu. For the first two kata, think of it as a strike directly to the head with a heavy, blunt object, rather than a kodachi... it's just slowed during embu for safety and control. And it's not used with two (like sai), in those kata it's a jutte (right hand) and a tessen (left hand). For good footage, most that I've seen online is the Ikkatsu Ryu material, which can be good, great, or mediocre (as not many SMR practitioners really focus on it, it can be a little underwhelming compared to them with a longer stick in their hands... it's all about size, it seems...), with much of it coming across as more "by the numbers" than real combative application (in spirit, of course). A lot of the other footage seems to be from Don Angier (hmm...), Ogawa Ryu (extra hmm....), or Bujinkan (so hit and miss I wouldn't recommend any of it). There is some short footage of Manaka showing his Jinen Ryu, again (like the Ikkatsu Ryu, sometimes using the jutte paired with a tessen), which includes one or two kata from Kukishinden Ryu, so you can look to that, if it interests you. But, for fun, here's a favourite clip of Shimizu Takaji teaching Jutte to the police.... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6M4O-oHxzY"]Shimizu Takaji Jutte Jutsu Police Dojo - YouTube[/ame] For usage, the jutte is best thought of as a baton... so think impact. Aim for bones that are easily broken, with common targets being the head, or the closest limb (controlling a weapon), and using the tine as a secondary feature. All in all, a fun little addition to an arsenal!
It IS a baton, just with an added trapping component. You can take techniques from pretty much any style of baton use you want.
Well, to a degree, yeah... but I wouldn't say that "any style of baton" is applicable. There are certain traits to Japanese methods, particularly Koryu methods, that are in line with what Rottenpunk is likely looking for, which don't really suit applications such as security or police baton (Western), or French La Canne style methods, or any of a number of others I can think of. The best is to look to the methods of the Kodachi Seiho she's familiar with (through her other training) as a base of movement, then remove the bladed aspect. That aside, small correction to myself from reading my previous post back... I was getting the name confused with Ittatsu Ryu (the Hojo system taught as a Fuzoku Ryu to Shinto Muso Ryu), the correct name of the Jutte system is Ikkaku Ryu, not Ikkatsu Ryu.... dammit.
There's a fair bit of jutte taught in the bujinkan. If you pop over to the ninjutsu section you may find a few people who have actual experiance in this matter.
Hmm. Is there a fair amount taught, or is there a fair amount of exploration of Budo Taijutsu using a Jutte? To me, those are very different things, and have a fair impact on the idea of those having "actual experience" when it comes to Jutte methodology...
@ Chris parker Based on this sentence I directed the op in the direction of a few people who IMHO could give them some advice, based on actual experiance taught directly from a Japanese martial arts master, and also who do as the man asked "practice with them" rather than fattening up a post based mainly on regurgitated google jutsu. In response to your first sentence, you clearly don't know which makes your second sentence pretty much redundant
rottunpunk, I have to admit to playing with my jutte when going through kodachi seiho. I'm not sure but it wouldn't surprise me if Steve D has experience with them.
You're kidding, right, Darren? Where on earth do you get that from? Firstly, I don't know where the insinuation that I don't have experience with it are from, especially as my first word of my first response to Rottenpunk asking if anyone had any was "Yeah", followed by the source of the material. Hell, we spent the last year covering Kukishinden Ryu here, and that included going through the Juttejutsu methods. All of them. I also indicated where other sources can be, from modern approaches (Jinen Ryu) to Koryu forms (which would be more familiar to Rottenpunk, knowing the systems she trains in). Oh, and Rottenpunk isn't a man, by the way. But to make it clear, yes, I train with Jutte. I have a number of them as well. As far as "fattening up a post" using google, do you really think that's where my information comes from? Seriously? And, if I was just "regurgitating" google sources, do you think I would have made the mistake in the Ryu's name that I picked myself up on later? But when it comes to "actual experience taught directly from a Japanese martial arts master", you are seriously drinking a hell of a lot of kool aid there, mate. There is no such thing as a single "martial arts master"... there are masters of particular arts, but the desperate need to see Hatsumi and others as masters of everything is honestly rather sad. No, I know the answer to my question, Darren. It was largely rhetorical, after all. I know what the Jutte syllabus in found in the Bujinkan arts is, and I know what the approach commonly seen is (which is not really centered around the actual Jutte methods, but more around the concepts of Budo Taijutsu, simply done employing a Jutte, but not always in ways consistent with the weapons historical, or even practical usage). So my point in asking was more to see if you can pick the difference, and if so, if you could see that the presence of Jutte in Bujinkan methods really doesn't necessarily equate to usage of Jutte. I've avoided going into this much in the past, but bluntly, the idea that because Hatsumi teaches something that makes it valid, correct, effective, historically authentic, combatively practical, or anything else is nothing but showing the complete lack of understanding of such things that seems to pervade the Bujinkan. The number of things Hatsumi shows that have little to no combative value or real place in martial arts is enormous. The sheer amount set-ups that seem to be a completely clueless and suicidal attacker are amazing... but it's always accepted. There is a phrase in Koryu that turns up in a few forms in a number of arts, which essentially translates along the lines of "the enemy isn't an idiot"... except that, in many cases in the Bujinkan, that's exactly what is seen. Now, that's fine if the aim is to explore creative applications and flow, which certainly seems to be what Hatsumi is showing, rather than true combative skills, but when the former is thought to be the latter it just leads to everyone suffering. And, when it all comes down to it, this is the issue with the Bujinkan. This is why it's ridiculed. It is only ever seen as being defences against non-attacks in situations that are just ludicrous. To illustrate, can you tell me what's wrong with this clip? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXw3fD37MsQ"]Hatsumi Bujinkan Daikomyosai 1999 - YouTube[/ame] Or this one? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOP-zyvvD-E"]åˆè¦‹è‰¯æ˜å…ˆç”Ÿã€Œæ¦ç¥žé¤¨ã€é“å ´é¢¨æ™¯ç·¨ - YouTube[/ame] That second one was put up by a couple of facebook members, one saying "Hatsumi Sensei showing how it should be done!" Now, it should be made clear that I think Hatsumi is great at what he does... but I don't think what he does is martial arts. I think it's martial play, and martial demonstration. The lack of riai, jutsu, and more remove it from being martial arts. And I really don't need to get into the whole "have you ever been uke for them?" question, as it's honestly completely irrelevant to the issues seen in the above clips. Do tell me when you spot them, yeah? My point is that there being Jutte in the Bujinkan doesn't mean that Juttejutsu is really taught, in terms of the actual usage of the weapon itself. Is that clearer now? Yep, seconded. Steve would be the guy to ask... but he's in Japan, presently, isn't he? Dean - From Hatsumi doesn't really mean anything, though.
lol, means a heck of a lot more than from Roy though! The wink afterwards indicated lightheartedness in the answer. Do you really think I missed your post above stating the kukishinden ryu stuff before I wrote that? I was unsure as to whether all bujinkan jutte stuff comes solely from there, so I didn't want to give Dean possible mis/incomplete information, to try and impress people. When I was being taught to teach (windsurfing) they told us, if you don't know something, say, 'I don't know, but I'll find out for you' I stick to that mostly for everything, but that's just me. Happy 2013 btw!
Sorry guys I forgot the X-kan mention at the start. That'll teach me not to read the thread on an iPod without reading the whole dam thread If anyone is interested here's the phrase Chris mentioned.
Tell you what, come visit, and I'll take you through my methodology, yeah? What I will say, though, is that I have my doubts about exactly what is being given, even by Menkyo Kaiden holders, for a range of reasons. But I've gone through that a number of times, and this is getting derailed enough as it is. Okay, maybe touching on it then... Firstly, I didn't use anything to "back up my stance", I said where Jutte methods that I've had some experience with come from. That's like backing up your stance that you speak English by saying you're from England (or America, or Australia etc). Next, if we're talking the Bujinkan, again it comes down to whether or not it's actually Juttejutsu being encountered, or applications of something else using a Jutte. Hence my comments, especially about the lack of relevance to Menkyo Kaidens. Right. "Big thing"? I noticed a mistake, and corrected it. And, no, I didn't open a book. Please. "Actual experience taught directly from a Japanese martial arts master"... right. But you weren't trying to imply anything. Because of some stolen videos that were posted without permission? Really? Ones that people couldn't actually give much real criticism of, other than RP, who couldn't even identify what he was critiquing? No. Nor is it technically Hatsumi's movement or anything of the kind, either... hence your previous comment being completely off the mark. Bluntly, if you can't see it, you have no real idea about combative realities as presented in traditional martial arts, or the hallmarks that show just how far from a real traditional art (such as Koryu) that the Bujinkan really is. Oh, there are more now? Really? And yeah, I've seen you "like" a photo... an odd choice, really, not sure why you picked that one, or why you even "liked" anything there... But no, that's not my argument. My argument is the same as Ben's from a while back when a clip of Hatsumi showing Iai was posted. Combatively the clips have gigantic issues, to the point that is such a thing was done with an actual traditional martial arts instructor, you'd be ripped to pieces over it. Tell you what, I don't think you're going to see it. So I'll point it out. The attacker is an idiot. He's either showing absolutely no respect to his opponent (in terms of what damage could be done to him), or he has no sense of self preservation. The first clip is Hatsumi showing variations on distancing concepts in the way he was teaching Seion... and has his uke grab hold with Kumi Uchi. While Hatsumi is wearing a sword. With absolutely no attempt to prevent Hatsumi from accessing his weapon. Then stands absolutely still as Hatsumi walks around (in one case, taking 8 steps) to draw his sword, and cut. The second clip features an attacker wearing two swords, but coming in with an over-extended punch from a distance... completely ignoring the fact that he's armed. From there, he completely fails to keep control of his armaments, allowing them to be taken without any problem at all. These behaviours are completely divorced from martial arts training practices. They are divorced from any form of combative reality. They show no awareness of the situation, or even on themselves, and, as an extension, show no respect to the danger engaging another person in combat, especially where weapons are concerned, which is required. These are far from isolated instances, they are present constantly and consistently. And they stem from Hatsumi, as it's always at his direction that such attacks are made. It's not martial arts, as the simple presence of mind that should be there from the get go is missing. So, as you can see now, it's got nothing to do with whether or not I've been uke to any of them, or felt their skills... it's that the very set-up itself is the mistake. And, in traditional systems, it's an unforgivable one. Hatsumi has never been interested in teaching. He's said that a number of times... but then, I hear others say that's him being modest. I think it's him being honest, really. And there are a number of reasons that the Bujinkan is viewed the way it is... and frankly, all of them stem from Hatsumi. First off, knowing how to use a weapon comes from the kata, Darren, to ignore that is to ignore the way these arts work. It's the ignoring of training through the kata, instead giving precedence to this "application" in other contexts that leads me to say that what might be encountered in a Bujinkan school (for Jutte) can be rather unrelated to actually using the weapon itself. But I really don't see what your take on what you experienced in your, what, less than a year with our organization has to do with anything here... nor do I know what you are referring to with my having a "Shodan in that sword school"... most of this seems to be an attack without real context for it, nor, I might say, a lot of basis. We might disagree on that, then... The only school with Jutte is Kukishinden Ryu. There have also been methods taught which are variations on Kukishin Ryu Hanbo, Asayama Ichiden Ryu Bogyaku Dori etc, as well as simply incorporating the weapon into the Taijutsu kata of a range of systems, or simply exploration divorced from anything else other than Budo Taijutsu. The Kukishinden Ryu Jutte system is five kamae (not taught separately, but within the kata), and five kata, each with an Ura Gata. It's the second-smallest section in the Bujinkan, with only the Kodachi being smaller (although the same number of kata once you include all the Ura Gata). Other Kan's are different, though.
Well, Ill give both Mr Parker and Mr Hatsie 1 point for at least trying to answer your question. The one closest to the truth is probably Mr Hatsie who stated that it comes from Hatsumi sensei. Most know how the story goes, one fine day in the Bujinkan Hatsumi sensei takes up a jutte for some unknown reason. He then goes on and shows how to use it in a given situation (probably as an extension to the previous thing everyone was working on). He then goes ahead and says "Play!" meaning: "Go ahead and try". He doesnt show a waza from any Ryu-ha or state a specific name so in all honestly its just a way of using a Jutte if you happen to have one lying around. Now, as to which Ryu-ha that Hatsumi sensei has studied and recieved Menkyo in with Jutte, most mention the kukishin/den ryu. To be honest Im not 100% sure if its from the Kukishinden Ryu or the Kukishin Ryu (2 separate schools btw), maybe it exists in both?! However there is this set of 5 kata that Mr Parker mentioned. This is not the only Ryu-ha with Jutte though. I dont know how many of the others that have it but a safe guess is that it exists in several. Gyokko Ryu is often mentioned when it comes to jutte and I think the other Toda related schools have it too. Not widely taught for some reason I dont know. Regards / Skuggvarg
