what is Hapkido? Im just curious. In another thread, i saw topic about throws and being attacked by multiple opponents. Is Hapkido a little similar to Aikido?
Hapkido and Aikido share the same root from Daito-Ryu Akijujitsu. Both arts employ lock & throw and the difference would probably be that Hapkido incorporate kicks and punches from ancient Korean arts into their syllabus.
Taken from the thread in the Questions and Answers section: "I cannot tell you much about Aikido as I have not trained in it. Hapkido is a pretty well-rounded style (in my opinion) and usually focuses on the following: "Traditional' Hapkido (1) Circular movements (footwork) (2) breakfalls (how to land when thrown, swept or falling down) (3) kicks and strikes, especially to lower targets and to senisitive areas (whether they are nerve junctions or just delicate) (4) Joint locks and manipulations (5) Sweeps and throws (6) Self defence applications (7) Some kwans do have forms (hyung), some don't 'Combat Hapkido' (1) All of the above (2) Cross training with ground grappling, weapons, and such In my personal opinion, I like both styles of Hapkido and hold dan grades in each. I find Hapkido pretty well rounded and practical. From what I have seen of Aikido, I would say the circular movements and joint locks are pretty similar and some sources say that much of this is shared. In my experience Hapkido also focuses on a great deal of striking as well. If I had to choose a school and one was Hapkido and one was Aikido, I would base my decision on the individual instructors and school atmosphere." Additionally, the simple idea that Hapkido is like Aikido mixed with TKD is a pretty good generalization. Hapkido offers the benefits of breakfall training (and throws), joint locks, powerful strikes of a great variety, circular footwork, and self defence appplications with the powerful kicking and striking of TKD (and linear footwork). If you have a chance to check out a Hapkido school, by all means do... (Combat Hapkido is more of a mixed martial art which hold some to some of the tradional style training... but offers training in grappling and other things... )
Yeah, I think the generalization of TKD mixed with Aikido would summarise Hapkido but the kicks and strikes are somewhat different. Traditional Hapkido teaches weapon as well, the baton and crane.
Just Curious Why is it today that so many Hapkido instructors think that there is NO Difference between Hapkido kicking and Tae Kwon Do kicking? This is one of the prime reasons Hapkido has become flavour of the month. Tae Kwon Do kicking has NO place in Hapkido. Re- treaded Tae Kwon Do Masters teaching Hapkido will be one of the prime reasons that Hapkido will degenerate over time into just another generic martial art marketed until it has lost all of its root integration.
Shadow Warrior: I would have to respectfully disagree and say that Hapkido has become a "flavour of the month". Granted, it has become more popular and there are more schools starting up around... I think people who want to learn Traditional Hapkido will continue to learn it and share it. Others will study the mixed style known as Combat Hapkido and very happy with this type of flexible and practical system. As for a "flavour of the month", Hapkido was pretty famous back in the 60s and 70s with the popularity of "Billy Jack" and Master Bong-soo Han (I think he was inducted into the Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame in 1978 or so)... and nowadays people are familiar with Traditional Hapkido for the joint locks and Combat Hapkido for its open-ness. Some of the schools are "Combat Hapkido", which I personally love but also would not classify as "Traditional Hapkido". As for access to Traditional Hapkido, I don't think there ever has been many schools around. With popularity increasing and a lack of enough qualified instructors, I can see where there is concern for the watering down of the style. As for the kicking.... I think many instructors trained in Hapkido and Taekwondo tend to mix the kicks together and don't really emphasize the difference. The kicking systems are different but they do meld together very well... I personally incorporate Hapkido kicking in with my TKD and vice versa. I guess that instead of teaching a "pure" style (and Hapkido really isn't that pure to begin with... with its influence from Tae Kyeon/Aikido/Kung Fu/etc), instructors tend to teach what they find works. In the case of instructors trained in TKD and Hapkido it seems to make sense to combine the kicking styles together. I personally hope to see Traditional Hapkido expand and grow but would rather see it remain as pure as possible than just get marketed out for its name.
JUST CURIOUS Once people learn how to kick with true "release" mechanics there is absolutely no logical reason to mix this method with "snap" kicking. Not only are the essential physical parameters, kenetics and energy transfer dynamics completely different, "snap" kicking is totally inconsistant with one of the three root theories of Hapkido, that being 'flow'. The other two are of course 'circle' and 'harmony'. Combat Hapkido is not in fact integrated Hapkido at all, but a collection of techniques mined from numerous martial arts and enhanced by theories and sets of techniques borrowed from many sources. It has just used the name Hapkido. By removing most of the more challanging aspects and free fighting applications of Hapkido as taught in the 1960's Blue House environment (dynamic jumping, throwing and critical life force and mind development techniques), the very nature of the system was not just compromised but became a completely different style. Dynamic, weight transfer twisting is not just some type of joint lock. The Master of Combat Hapkido was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner long before he ever heard of Hapkido. He never learned Hapkido kicking. The most famous "pure" Hapkido kicker (and free fighter) ever to appear in the movies is Master Hwang In Shik not Grandmaster Bong Soo Han. Although they know each other quite well, their kicking styles are not from the same teaching source. Throughout the 1970's Master Hwang appeared in dozens of martial art movies with just about every famous martial art star of the time, including Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan. It is known for instance, that if you use your quad muscle to lift your leg to execute a front, round or side kick, it is Not Hapkido kicking! Kicking rythum, application and integration can only be achieved through years of developing dynamic internal free fighting motion. Some weapons and ground fighting techniques were already in Hapkido as early as the 1950's and were part of the training in the Blue House from the mid 1960's on. Combat Hapkido may be said to represent a particular named style, but it has very little in common with the roots of what is considered to be the lineage of free fighting Hapkido. This is particularly apparent when the kicking and free fighting theories are examined.
Hapkido history in a nutshell, according to what my (Korean) masters told me, according to GM Kwang-Sik Myung (10dan) ‘s book on Hapkido and the Hapkido familiy tree (http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_family_tree.html) Long time ago when Chinese culture flourished, Buddhist monks traveled from China to spread Buddhism. They went to Korea and established many temples (I’ve been to many of them). They were not always well liked so they built the temples on mountains and they used their martial skills to defend them. These skills would form the basis of Hapkido later. Korea became a cultural bridge for Chinese ideas to go to Japan. Buddhist monks went to Japan (as well as Korean artisans, especially potters) and spread these ideas. Martial Arts remained in the temples of Korea, and they later would be hidden during the Japanese occupation in the first half of the 20th century. During Japanese occupation, Koreans were forbidden from learning martial arts but they were kept alive through the temples and secret practice. In Japan, Sogaku Takeda taught some of these fighting skills to Morihei Ueshiba, who later founded Aikido. He was also the teacher of Choi Yong-sul. Choi Yong-sul took these skills and combined them with remnants of Korean fighting arts and founded Hapkido. To make a long story short, when people start arguing over the relationship between Aikido and Hapkido and so on… they are related and share many similar parts. Some of the techniques originated in China, some were added in Korea and some were added in Japan. By creating the styles of Aikido and Hapkido, these techniques were ultimately combined into different systems. As for your statements about your system, keep in mind that there are several different sets of Hapkido. If you look on the Hapkido family tree, you will see that your masters Hwang In Shik and Chung Kee Tae are students of Choi Yong-sul (as is GM Bong-soo Han). The system I learned was taught under GM Myung Jae nam (who passed away in 1999). He was taught by Ji Han-Jae who had combined the teachings of Choi Yong-sul with the kicking elements of Taoist Lee. We both study Hapkido which comes directly from the founder’s teaching, but there have been changes as the art is passed on each time. Is either one of our systems the “pure” Hapkido? I don’t think so… but I do think we are lucky to be able to train in such history rich styles, despite the differences. By the way, usually when I write about Hapkido, I also mention Combat Hapkido. I hold 2nd dan ranking in Korean Hapkido (IHF) and 2nd dan ranking in ICHF. I have studied both and would agree that Combat Hapkido is not really Hapkido, but rather a condensed version of Hapkido with a great deal of mixed martial arts. As for GM Pellegrini, he is a wonderful teacher and is a 9th dan in Hapkido according to the World Kido Federation. Cheon Doo Kwan Hapkido is now a recognized kwan and is spreading rapidly. I personally like both styles of Hapkido, and have trained (am training) in both. (Side note to slothmaster: what kind of ranking system does your style use? I am not sure I understand the ranks listed in your tag line. Thanks)
Hi Thomas, haha, I was just playing the fool. I'm so white belt ;p As for TKD masters teaching Hapkido thus diluting the true essence, I feel that the cause could partly be due to the ease of belt conversion between the two styles. A black belt in TKD is also viewed as a black belt when they attend Hapkido training....or at least that is what I see in certain dojang.
Grandmaster Hwang In Shik is simply fantastic! Did you see the movie 'Hapkido' made in the 70's? His legs are amazing!
Just curious Thomas: There are MANY versions of history. Although Hapkido info-net has been very helpfull in deseminating Hapkido information, this source is by no stretch of the imagination, 100% accurate. Each second generation Hapkido Master can and often do recount their very own versions. I have heard variations of same from more than a half dozen original 2nd generation Masters which I have met and trained with, over the past 25 years. Although Master Chung was indeed a direct student of Master Choi, he studied other striking arts, as he felt that the Karate flavoured kicking (displayed by Master Bong Soo Han), being taught was far too ridged to be applied in the environment he knew. Master Hwang was also a student of Choi's for a short period of time, but he studied with Ji-Han Jae (appointed Master Hwang as Head Instructor of Korean Hapkido Association) for much longer. However, what had much more influence on his root technique was the fact he came from an accomplished 'soft style' martial arts family in what is now North Korea. In his historical account of Choi Yong Sool and his training, Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung states "Yong Sool Choi studied in a deep mountain since the age of nine. By the time he came back to the world, Korea had been liberated from Japanese colonialrule". History can be and continues to be rewritten by people who have their own reasons. In my posts I have never claimed to know what "pure" Hapkido was (you used the term) or might be, but I do know that it was intended to be a free fighting system capable of addressing attacks of all known varieties. These diversified methods of attack required the development of an integrated human response. An adhoc collection of technique will never amount to an integrated response as there is no underlying philosophy to tie them together. 'Natural' human body motion is the root of ALL (punching, kicking, twisting, throwing..) of the most powerfull martial arts techniques. The further away from this integrated ideal a technique strays, the less energies can be utilized or transfered. Although this fundamental concept relates to all possible martial technique, kicking is generally considered to be potentially the most powerfull. "Release" type kicking, although not very common is recognized as the most dynamic, fluid and effective method of transfering maximum energy to the impact point. Often characterized inaccurately as straight legged kicking, nothing could be further from the truth. In my original post I was very interested to see if there was anyone on this form who had any actual knowledge of the real fundamental differences between the kicking theories and their applied effectiveness. It takes me a minimum of a year to retrain TKD black belts (or any snap kicker for that matter) to kick with any "release". In contrast, a new martial arts student can gain fundemental understanding in a few months. It is not only easier on their bodies (knees and backs), it is infinetly more effective in free fighting. This method of kicking is NOT unique to Hapkido but it is part of the Hapkido 'free fighting' line. There is an example of Hwang Do Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee displaying this dynamic kicking theory in a 16mm demostration film made in Korea during the mid 1960's (recently seen on A+E), before he came to North America. All of the well known 2nd generation Hapkido Master's know of this kicking method (which may have originated in one particular line of Tae Kkyon found in Northern Korea), not all can display it and those who can it seems do not so routinely. Tae Kwon Do snap kicking is far easier to teach and learn than release kicking but once a person gains the insights into the benefits of this method there is no logical reason to return to, or mix (if possible) the two theories. As I said "just curious".
Shadow Warrior: I would say by your reply that we are completley in agreement about the history of Hapkido... my "history" post was designed to show that everyone has their own version of their art's history and that there are many versions out there. I re-counted the one I heard and learned. In an art like Hapkido, you will hear many versions of how it developed and you will hear many stories of various masters. I try to keep an open mind about it all. What I find dangerous is when martial artists get brainwashed into "Only my art.... blah blah blah" or "We are the best..." or "Only my master.... blah blah blah" (And No, I am not implying you are saying this). When students and teachers prepetuate this they only reinforce close-mindedness. About "pure" Hapkido, I put "pure" in quotes because there really is no pure Hapkido in my opinion. Hapkido is a style developed from many others and it changes a little everytime it is taught and learned. The original post was asking differences between Hapkido and Aikido. Hence my answer. Your "Just Curious" topic about the differences between Hapkido and Taekwondo kicking is an interesting one and if you are interested in getting people's responses, you may wish to start a separate thread on this topic. (P.S. Please don't take offence, but when posting long passages, skip a line here and there to break it up. I used to post without making paragraphs and all that does is make people skip over it. I am looking forward to more of your posts.)
Re: Just curious I would like to comment on this, mainly because you mentioned it in both posts. Logical reason: It works for me. Any tool that I have developed and incorporated into my system of defending my body that works will remain with me. I love Hapkido kicks and I love Taekwondo kicks. I use both styles. Students in my school learn both styles and use them differently according to what works for them. Again, this is my personal opinion. It may not work for you, but it does for me.
just curious Thomas I will break up my posts a bit to make it easier to read. The first question then becomes "works" in which context, in the club or when your life is on the line? Why would a person deliberately choose to sacrifice demonstratable superior power, cant and telegraph a kick, when any well trained fighter will immediately take advantage of both of these parameters? Perhaps we are talking apple and oranges here. Can you describe the physiology and kenetics of what you are referring to as 'Hapkido' kicking. Maybe you could contrast the differences between what you call snap kicking (Tae Kwon Do ) and Hapkido type kicking. For an example, why not use the lead leg round kick? It would be very helpfull if you could outline the roles of the various anatomical components and the accompanying internal thought processes which are employed for each method. At that point we could determine if we are on the same page as far as definitions, physiological and human kenetic methodologies are concerned. The second question which becomes apparent within your concept 'works's is the health related component manefested in kicking. It is well known in the martial arts in general, that snap kicking is particularly hard on the knees and to a lesser extent the lower back. To remain consistent with the precepts of Hapkido (Health, Fitness, Self Defence), anything which harms the body is by its very nature, counter productive, counter intuitive and therefore illogical. In a nutshell, further from the truth of self actualization. The inherent third question relates to the three foundations of all Hapkido techniques. Circle, Flow and Harmony. Snap kicking creates in its mechanics what are known as "seams". These are created by canting and pulling the leg beyond natural bend as well as other disruptive body mechanics. This can occur before, during and or after kicking. This not only creates restrictions in the pathways for internal energy flow it makes it almost impossible to harmonize in any meaningfull with any opponent(s). This methodology is completely at odds with two of the aformentioned foundation principles. I look forward to your description of the differences in the two types of kicking you are mixing together.
Hapkido is not Aikido mixed with Taekwondo many people come to that conclusion about hapkido when we say that Hapkido has Kicks and Aikido doesn't. The Main difference between hapkido and Aikido is that Choi Young Sool (founder of Hapkido) trained under Takeda Sokaku (a GM of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu) for 30years and Morihei Ueshiba (Founder of Aikido) studied under Takeda Sokaku for 5 years. You can imagine the difference in technique's Level. What I noticed mostly in Aikido Schools and the Hapkido school I goto, Aikido tends to pull the oponet while in Hapkido the Oponet comes on his own because of the fear of a teared/Broken Joint. Most of Hapkido Kicks are not Snaps they are mostly Straight legged and used for streching. Our back heel is always turned out to the target so we don't break the ankle or twist it and we move from our center and turn from our waist so we don't use leg power its the whole body and what GM Jang Young Shil would usually call it is "Spin power". But for instants a Temple kick can be straight leg and Snap But when we snap we turn our hip into the kick at the same time and we don't snap it back so pretty much after the kick our leg is straight then we bring our leg back down to its original position. Our school doesn't Kick above the waist if anything we don't kick at all (but we kick to learn how to defend against them that way we know the mechanics of a kick and how it will be coming at us) because your balance is off with one leg in the air. GM Jang Young Shil and my Instructor 5dan Allen, Jeffrey told me many times "Would you punch me in the foot ? Then why would you kick me in the head?"
Shadow Warrior: I really wish I could engage in a discussion in the “roles of the various anatomical components and the accompanying internal thought processes which are employed for each method” but I really do not think I could articulate that in writing. You seem to be able to and for that I am a bit jealous. I learned Hapkido kicking in Korea in Korean language (which I did not always completely understand). I learned by doing. When it was right, we practiced more and learned more. When it was wrong, I was shown the right way by the master. We didn’t really “talk” it all through. When I teach Hapkido kicks, I do them and help students do them. I am very interested in how you would describe them because that is something that I would like to add to my teaching style… so I will await your response eagerly. About Hapkido kicking, I would like to quote GM Kwang-Sik Myung, whose book is one of the main references I use and it is especially helpful because it is written in Korean and English. Some of the philosophy may seem at odds with the philosophy you have learned, but it is the philosophy of the World Hapkido Federation and it is how I learned it when I studied in Korea. I agree with the following quote with the exception of Thai Boxing being referred to as a “soft kicking style”… I am not sure and would welcome anyone familiar with Thai Boxing to offer their views. “Most martial arts have 5 to 10 different kicks. Hapkido has over 100 different types of kicks. As a result there are many different types of Hapkido kicking techniques. In other martial arts, the targets of the kick are usually the head or chest area. There are only two or three target areas. In Hapkido, the target range is from the ankle to the head. The whole body is a target. This is one of the main differences in Hapkido kicking. Another major difference between Hapkido kicks and other martial arts is that other martial arts focus on one target. Hapkido utilizes multiple targets and multiple kicks in sequence. Hapkido incorporates jump kicks, double kicks, and special kicks. Hapkido is also very flexible, fast and powerful. It is not rigid in its kicking style. This is another difference from other martial arts. Some other martial arts emphasize a hard kicking style. Taekwondo or Karate use this kind of kick. Kung Fu or Thai kickboxing, on the other hand, use a soft style of kick which is just the opposite of the harder styles. Hapkido kicks are soft and strong, hard and fast. In other words, Hapkido combines the best of both styles of kicking. As a result, Hapkido kicks are more flexible without sacrificing any power” (Kwang-Sik Myung (World Hapkido Federation – 10 dan), Hapkido (English-Korean), Seolim Publishing:1994, p. 97)
just curious John-ihf There are two very practical reasons to develop the free fighting ability to dynamically kick people in the head (standing, jumping, flying). Powerfull kicks to the head are potentially lethal, being the most vulnerable part of a human being (as my second Master used to say..watermellon explode), as the leg is the most powerfull striking component of the body. First, Hapkido was developed to be an art which could deal with attacks based in any of the know martial aspects, (punching, kicking, twisting, throwing..ect). In order to achieve the highest free fighting ability you should be well versed in ALL components yourself. This allows you to understand the dynamics of combined attacks and practice against the BEST punchers, kickers..ect. not someone who can not REALLY kick. If you can dynamically kick someone in the head in the open field, taking advantage of lower impact points (when caution is called for), will not only be significantly easier, it will INCREASE your energy transfer far beyond what would have been possible without developing high section dynamic kicking. Second, explosive kicking is potentially the most difficult type of attack to deal with in free fighting..to place less emphasis on this aspect of martial art than the others is not consistent with the goal of being intimately familiar with all possible weapons of the human body. Hapkido has MORE kicks than ANY other martial art and to de-emphasis this aspect in any of its manifestations dramatically reduces the potential free fighting ability of that person. To paraphrase. Would a person punch a person in the foot, probably not. Would a person kick a person in the head.. probably...unless they knew realistically how to stop it! Pick up times (from the floor to the head) for dynamic heel turning and round kick have routinely be measured in range of from 1/10 to 1/12 of a second, some people are actually faster. This is about the time of a routine human eye blink. To ignore this fact is to do so at your own peril.
Well now knowing all that, Kicks were orginally designed for Horses. You ask why exactly why they would be designed for horses well because when a horse breaks its leg it doesn't break it it shatters the whole bone that is why a racing Horse falls over and shatters its leg it is not useful any more. So while the horse is running at you they would time it just right when the horse is exchanging the weight from both front legs they strike the one that is about to goto the ground and the horse flips off balance And where the Horse goes the Rider follows. Jumping kicks were for suprise attack. A person would sit up on a hill/tree/high place hidden and jump at a rider from the area and kick him off the horse or Kick the horse in the neck. The High Kicks were used to kick the riders leg and break it thus not allowing the rider to ride the horse because with a broken leg you will simplely slide off the horse or kick into the the neck of the horse. Then Ofcourse they realized if the kick will have that kind of effect on a horse then why not try to use it on a Human? Human's are much smarter then a Horse if someone sees a kick coming to the head they will duck and if anything the faster person wins. I'm we can see a person get ready for a kick by the way they pivit their feet or the shift in body balance a horse can't.
Just curious John_ihf As I said in my previous post..a person who can REALLY kick..not a telegraphed motion passing itself off as a contrived attempt to kick. NO accomplished free fighter pivots their foot before kicking. Their kicking is based on natural body motion indistinguishable in the initial stages from the motion used to execute other attacking techniques. There are two types of 'speed'..stop watch speed and deception speed..you do not seem to aware of this fact. The old story about high section kicking applications being used exclusively against horses is just that, an old folklore story. Flying kicks were used to knock the rider off, that much is the true. Ask yourself this question..why is it that during the last ten years or so about 25% of mixed martial arts proffessional fights have been ended by a kick to the head? Furthermore, a number of the matches at the last olympic games in Tae Kwon Do were decided by knock out caused by kicks to the head. If it was so easy to duck and avoid these techniques wouldn't a highly trained proffessional fighter do so? It is quite obvious that your exposure to dynamic kicking has been quite limited in an application sense which is EXACTLY my point. Just because you can not execute a technique yourself does NOT mean it can not be done very well by someone else. Surprize is nice on a birthday but not when your life is at stake.
