Judokas & Jujitsukas both?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Syd, Jan 8, 2004.

  1. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Greetings all,

    I have some deep questions so bear with my intro and set up. :)

    I'm a Taiji fighter and have recently begun looking into more throwing, downing and submission oriented arts to round out the short fall in my own system. Taiji is essentially a stand up, close quarters grappling game where we generally yeild, borrow, redirect and essentially kill, maim or mangle upon first contact.

    We have some takedowns in Taiji but we never go to ground or follow through with submissions... the game is generally up before then, atleast when you do it right. If I could study Chinese Fast Wrestling (Shuaijiao), I would. Sadly this is a fairly rare art outside China and I have instead decided to look at either Judo or JJJ.

    It's becoming very difficult to make the right decision on which way to go in regards to downing/throwing when weighed up one against the other. So I thought I really need to talk to some experienced Judokas who are perhaps Jujitsukas as well, or vice versa, in order to get some objective opinions.

    Here's how I see it so far...

    The Case for and against Judo...

    1. The fact that you can work with non compliant opponents training in applications is a major plus!

    2. Judo is a sport which has rules so not all throws or techniques found in JJJ are allowed. The sporting aspects of Judo perhaps make it less realistic as a
    street effective combat art?

    3. So while Judo allows some format for full contact sparring with a non compliant opponent, it is perhaps limited by a sporting paradigm.

    4. High graded Judokas are extremely effective fighters so this is a plus, but apparently the kinds of throws allowed in Judo are not as nasty or damaging as many of the JJJ throws.

    5. Judo lacks the more rounded curriculum of JJJ including, striking, locks, etc.

    The Case for and against Japanese Jujitsu

    1. JJJ in most schools does not allow any kind of non compliant full contact sparring due to the kind of techniques used.

    2. JJJ does train a wide range of techniques including a full curriculum of throws, strikes, take downs, defence against weapons, joint locks, submissions etc... but these are trained in a more opponent compliant environment.


    If I have offended anybody or need educating in any way then by all means please do. I have great respect for both arts and know the history of Judo and Jigori Kano with regards JJJ etc. What I am really looking for is a companion art that is combat effective, covers a wide range of nasty throwing and downing techniques including the realistic training of such techniques that work to most lethal effect in the street.

    I would very much like to hear the opinions of those who study both, have trained both or have suggestions as regards to the direction I might best take. I know this is my own decision to make but right now I am really looking for objective views and idea's from the
    savvy in both arts.

    If I could have the practical non compliance of Judo and everything that JJJ offers it would be perfect... Should I do a bit of both or this out of the question? *L*

    Best to all, Syd
  2. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I have studied both Judo and Jujutsu, and am still ranked higher in Judo than jujutsu, having trained much longer in judo. However, I have more or less stopped my Judo training in favour of the Jujutsu simply beacuse the techniques are taught from a self-defence perspective. Yes the Judo techniques are practiced at full speed against resisting opponents (note that there is a difference between non-compliant and resisting opponents, in my mind at least), but for the most part in unrealistic situations. In Judo competitions, you are always going to be against 1 opponent, unarmed, who is not going to make any attempt to punch, kick, grab in certain ways, etc. Certain techniques are banned, most of them through being too effective at full speed. Due to the ban they are rarely practiced by judoka, even those not training just for competition.

    Personally I would recommend that you find a school of jujutsu that suits your practice mentality. There are Jujutsu schools that spar using various rules, there are others which practice situational defences with the attackers becoming increasingly uncooperative.
  3. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    Hi Syd.

    I currently practice JJJ and Hung/Lau gar kung fu.I did for a time study Judo for a 2 months or so. i would agree that most JJJ schools don't do enough randori etc but we do a bit at our JJJ school. alos i agree with pretty much everything aegis said. Altho (unless sparring) your opponenet does not resist they are non compliant in JJJ. So their not gonna jump.

    If you find a good JJJ school they shoud train in sparring where you can puch, kick, throw, ground fughtiing , whatever (pretty hard aswell but othcourse with control.

    But my main argument for choosing JJJ over Judo would be the similarites between aplications. (which i don't think you'd get to the same extent with Judo) Studying CMA mys elf JJJ has improved my understanding of Kung fu and vica versa. I'm sure the same could be said fortai chi. One other big problem. Juso (in my experience) doens't do any defences apart from against grappling.

    I'd love to do judo but can't afford it/ Don't have the time.

    But ofcourse the obvious thing, that i'm sure you know, is to try a few classes of both.

  4. Kat

    Kat Valued Member

    UNSW and Syd Uni Judo clubs are both excellent and cheap.Their focus is mainly comp,but the fundamentals are extremely well taught.Including ground work.Members of all ages who are dedicated and enthusastic.
    If you read the takedown thread in this forum you will get an understanding of why certin takedowns (mostly common to MMA styles) arn't focused on within Judo.

    For a different perspective(with a more self defense vibe which I take is a piroity for you) Elvis Sinosic at Concord has regular no gi sessions with a focus on Break balance,throws,sweeps and takedowns.

    Personally I would highly recomend Paulo Guimaraes

    Either way any of the above schools with application and discipline can only aid your training and skills.
    Forgive me if the question was for exclusively JJJ or Judo,but these other schools are world class and in our local backyard.
  5. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Thanks to all guys!

    You have all pretty much mirrored my own thoughts on the situation so it was good to get it from somewhere else just so I know I'm not nuts or missing something obvious. ;)

    I am sizing up a few different schools locally at the moment and have chatted to one of their teachers so far regarding JJJ. There is another school at UNSW that is Jitsu and affiliated with the U.K Jitsu foundation that Aegis is a member of also. And finally I found a non lineage based school that seems quite progressive and interested in Sparring Jujitsu in developmental stages who I have yet to speak to. I am definately aiming for JJJ but wanted to hear about Judo from others just to make sure my views were not out of whack.


    I have been looking at the Uni of Sydney Judo club, who look excellent and cheap by the way but am still aiming for something in the JJJ area. I know Andy went and did some mat work with Paulo, though I don't think he said it was quite his thing.

    I'm not really looking for a grappling art perse', such as BJJ. I guess I want some ground work and submissions, and the usual chokes if I need them but I don't want to focus there, (The ground), because the ground isn't the place I want to end up if I can help it.

    The idea really is to have throwing skils, locks, holds and submissions with some ground work so that I have those skills should I need them. My aim however is to always remain a Taiji stylist first but to have other guns and back up should the situation call for it.

    It would be nice to know if I go for a move that I can't get on right and roll into another move which for some reason fails and I'm deep inside my guys guard, that I can roll into taking the guy down with a bone crushing throw which will have them land awkwardly, or on their heads. My main aim is to not only have a plan B, but a plan C, D and E if I can possibly help it.

    We gotta meet up sometime so I can pick your brains. ;)

    Thanks to all, I'll keep chatting to the various agencies and post back here how it goes progressively.

    Here's the three clubs I'm looking at so far...




    Best, Syd...
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2004
  6. Jim

    Jim New Member


    I think (given that you know particularly what you want) that you should go for Judo. You seem to be happy with the other skills that you would just be re-learning in JJ with a different terminology, and that's just confusing. Realistically though, in your shoes I'd try a Judo club first and give it a few months before deciding if it's any good or not, then move to another if you're unhappy.

    Let us know how you go.
  7. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    Well I like the idea that JJJ has standup chokes and locks as well as a larger array of throws than Judo, particularly the nastier kinds of throws which would really be tasty for street situations. I may even see if I can do a bit of both but JJJ just seems to have allot more going for it generally without the sporting limitations of Judo. I really love the idea of Judo and have great respect but my concern is the restriction of technique.

    Thanks for your thoughts. :)
  8. redbull

    redbull New Member

    At the club that i practise judo we also do jujutsu so in essence we train in both judo and jujutsu. i will tell you this in my opinion the judo guy will always be a better prepared for a "modern day" fight than the jujutsu guy. Here is why: the jujutsu guy practises a technique or throw which in will work in theory and maybe with a "willing" opponent, but when the judo guy throws an opponent he knows that not only did his technique work but he did it on an opponent who tried like hell not to let himself be thrown. Furthermore the judo guy fights all the time at full power while the jujutsu guy might fight once in a while with controlled power. In simple term judo gives the eye of the tiger, it makes you the aggressor, you dont wait around for some guy to throw you , you get in throw and go home. Judo will also give pretty decent ground skill if you train at the right club (some clubs dont stress the ground work too much.) which if you are ever in a fight will come in real handy. so as a judo/jujutsu guy i will tell that although judo is considered a sport it a very lethal and one of the most effective martial arts around.
  9. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    "Judo will also give pretty decent ground skill if you train at the right club (some clubs dont stress the ground work too much.) "

    Looking at allot of Sport Judo and Competitions it looks like many of the throws are quite messy with both participants ending up on the ground, usually one ontop of the other. I haven't seen too many Judo throws in where somebody remains standing. I'm not saying this can't happen or doesn't happen but rather it is a concern because without the proper ground skills I think throws that sacrafice your own advantage can't be that great unless you can then go for submissions or holds on the ground.

    One of the things about JJJ that I can work out is that a throw comes after a strike and a technique of entering and softening up prior to the throw. The throws in JJJ seems to be allot more dangerous whereas the Judo throws are more about downing the opponent rather than hurting them with the throw itself. If all Judo is about is pretty much downing the opponent without the finishing skills on the ground (obviously this is where BJJ has progressed Judo) and no striking techniques then this seems very limited outside the realm of competition, does it not? Don't get me wrong, I want Judo to work in the street but I am alarmed by the shortfall (pardon the pun) in it's own arsenal of technical advantages.

    Anyone care to discuss this further?

    Best, Syd
  10. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Gross generalisation. Might as well say that since judoka practice their throws against willing opponents they aren't going to work. It's all part of the learning process: practice against a willing opponent first, then move on to more and more resistance. If your club doesn't do it, it doesn't mean no clubs do. I'll still syick with my opinion that a jujutsuka will have better self defence throws available, and (as pointed out by Syd) will also be used to putting in some weakening strikes before attempting a throw, somethign a judoka is likely to think less about than taking a "traditional" Judo grip of some description.

    Most Judo groundwork will get you badly hurt on the street. There are a few techniques you might use at times, but mostly the techniques work because you can't use strikes or face contact to remove the opponent. Try holding someone in kesa gatame but allow them to grab at your face, put some strikes into the ribs, etc. You'll quickly see that as a street hold it's totally ineffective. Not to mention the fact that it forces you to be down on the ground with limited visual range and no free limbs. Jujutsu teaches more in the way of practical ground immobilisation techniques, focusing more on what you can do to your opponent while still standing rather than getting down on the ground with him.
  11. cal_JJJ

    cal_JJJ New Member

    "If I could have the practical non compliance of Judo and everything that JJJ offers it would be perfect... "

    You might try checking out Kempo Jujitsu. The school in my area has a very good mix of non compliance sparring/compititions and all the techniques and locks of JJJ.
  12. redbull

    redbull New Member

    First, let me clarify something to everyone, there are strikes, kicks, and small joints manipulatios techniques in judo they are just not used in competitive judo.

    As for the fighters always ending up in the ground in a judo competion this is because most techniques in judo can either be done with tori (the thrower) remaining standing or with tori falling on top of the oponent this is called makikomi and it is used to add power to the trow as well as to continue the on to the ground with an advantageous position in the ground. This does not have to be the case tori can deside to throw without makikomi if he so desires. However given t he amount of power that a makikomi adds to a throw in a "one-on-one" fight i would most definately makikomi any throw that i do on an adversary in the street. Also let me point out that a one well done throw such as an uchi mata or an ippon seonage done at full speed, makikomi, on a hard surface without the benefit af a mat to cushion the fall will very likely end the fight.

    Aegis you mentioned:
    "Try holding someone in kesa gatame but allow them to grab at your face, put some strikes into the ribs, etc. You'll quickly see that as a street hold it's totally ineffective."

    As far as taking the fight to the ground a judoka who in a real fight situation takes an oponent to the ground and then holds him in kesa getami is not a smart judoka at all. there are so many other things that judokas are trained to do such as arm bars or chokes that that would be more suitable in a fight. let me metion tha a well executed choke will put the lights out on anyone in 15 seconds or less. huh, Does not give lots of time to punch and eye gouch etc.

    "Not to mention the fact that it forces you to be down on the ground with limited visual range and no free limbs"

    Is far as fighting more than one opponent, you dont have to take the fight to the ground, judo does give you the option of punching and kicking, as well throwing while remaining standing.

    In the end there are pros and cons to both judo and jjj so if you can take from both what works for you then you will have a more complete self defence system.
  13. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    judo is definitely the best if you want takedowns, JJJ is good but it is more self defense oriented. If you wanna improve your takedowns, judo and/or wrestling would be best. For submissions, BJJ and/or submission wrestling would be good
  14. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    15 seconds on the ground is a long time in a brawl, long enough for his mates to pick up something and smash it over your head. Most Judo groundwork is too slow to be used in anything but direst needs, where you have been taken to the floor and have to get back on your feet. Even then it's not great because Judoka generally don't practice escaping from the ground with illegal techniques allowed.
  15. redbull

    redbull New Member

    In the end it's not the style that wins the fight but the individual. So it would be best suited for the individual to to be proficient in as many methods of combats as there is time for you to learn. I will tell you this, judo is more effective in a self defence situation that most poeple give it credit for in this forum.
  16. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    It is more effective than percieved, I'll give you that. If only because several years of being pounded against the floor will toughen your body up quite a bit. Combined with some basic blocking and a more street-oriented method of gripping, Judo throws become very nasty in a self defence situation. However, most judoka I know have no idea how to correctly block a punch. That says a lot about how much emphasis is usually put on self-defence in judo clubs in this country. You learn more self defence in the Nage-no-kata than most judo clubs. Sad but true.

    On a lighter note, there is an effort to revitalise the Goshin-jutsu (self defence) side of Judo within the BJA (British Judo Association). Several seminars have been run to date, though I have yet to attend one so can't comment on it. However, an old instructor of mine is heavily involved in it, and he assures me that it's good stuff. I trust his opinion.
  17. Jim

    Jim New Member

    One of the best reasons to do it, IMO.

    You guys seem to be arguing about Judo but from both the same side of the fence. Odds are the style/type you do are very similar and have the same benefits. But don't let me stop you from having at each other. The Judo section of MAP has been too quite of late and I'd love to see (and even offer my services as a ref) if you two wanna take it to the mat... :D
  18. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami


    I am actually seriously looking at the UNSW Judo club right now and think I might just go with some straight Judo for a while. These guys are a top sports club with an excellent rep and the Coach is one hell of a nice guy. I think these guys produce Olympic, State and National champs.

    I'll post back soon. ;)
  19. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I may have come across as somewhat more argumentative than I meant to. My real point (buried somewhere in the endless drivel I tend to spout) is tht Judo in its current sport form will only serve you in a self defence situation if you look elsewhere for blocking and trapping methods. Either that or practice every now and then without the judo rules, just trying to get a judo throw onto the opponent.

    As with everything else, positioning is vital. But the methods to get to the correct position are very different in self defence and competition.

    Jim: Getting on the mat to fight? Just to solve an argument? What, you want me to relearn my Judo to settle an online discussion? Pass, too lazy for that ;)
  20. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    Hey syd i train at the UNSW.......come join us some time for a bit of randori ;)

    As for jjj throws being nastier.....how so.....any decent throw that makes you land in the solid concrete in the streets will hurt.Bad.

    Another thing i like about judo over ju jitsu is the (at least at my school) heavy emphasis on controlling your opponent.I mean really heavy emphasis every throw has its own way to control your opponent so that you can make sure he lands safely or face down in the mud if you want.

    As for compeition judo being messy.....thats what you get if u get 2 decent grapplers in a grappling contest.In a real situation the judokas opponent wont be trying to grapple back.Neither will he be expecting to be thrown(unlike the judo comps where the people know that their opponent is trying to throw him/her.)

    And you are a good taichi fighter which means you are a good stand up fighter...why not just learn the part you lack in(grappling)?

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