Judo: MMA or TMA?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Adam, Nov 24, 2003.

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  1. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    J udo is a sport and a combat MA aswell. It was or so i believe originally intended as a sport but it still retains alot of really good combat elements.

    As for the TMA/MMA thing i'm torn. How do yu define traditional. I mean Alot of the "traditional" CMA s are less than 100 years older than it.hmmmmm.
  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Just a note, Karate is 'almost' an olympic sport now, they're waiting for Japan to hold the Olympics so it can be introduced as a demonstration sport, same goes for Aikido.

    Feel free to continue debating! :D
  3. DeepFreeze

    DeepFreeze Lurker

    @ judojedi

    Heh, no offense but that's pretty ridicilous claim that if MA gets into olympics, it's no longer MA :p

    Judo is indeed both, a sport and martial art. The reason it was eligible for the olympics, was that it can be safely competed with full power. And I have NEVER heard anyone calling people practising judo "judo players" before. Wouldnt your theory conclude that any MA that can be competed in, is sport? Kinda narrows down the amount of martial arts.

    (sorry about this gibberish post, most of it didnt make any sense either. But bear with me, I just came from exhausting judo practise :) )
  4. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    When you sau "judo players" over here in alot of magazne and in clubs (but in my experience more so down is england than here in sunny scotland) praticioners of many arts are called players. Just a form of terminlogy. Not sugesting a game or sport.
  5. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Yep, I here the term 'players' quite alot. Judo is becoming more of a sport these days though, as that is were the money is :(
  6. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    forget the olympic aspect i was going on about earlier, the fact of the matter is, JUDO IS NOT A MARTIAL ART!
    it comes from a martial art.
    it uses martial art techniques.
    but it is not a martial art itsself. its a sport!

    to prove this i refere to the KODOKAN manual. it does not mention MARTIAL ARTS at all, apart from when it talks about ju-jitsu. the closest term used when refereing to judo is 'martial principal'. i have attached some paragraphs from the kodokan, note the use of the word SPORT and lack of the term MARTIAL ART.

  7. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    at what point did i claim this? if you read what i have posted, you will see that i have said judo IS a sport and never was a martial art. at no point did i say that its was a martial art, but now cos its in the olympics its a sport.
  8. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Sheesh! :rolleyes:

    Judo is a sport and a martial art

    Next you will be telling me boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Taekwondo are not martial arts :rolleyes:

  9. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    JudoJedi, I think you need to read the Kodokan Judo book a little bit more in depth, Kano was one of the greatest Martial Artists of his time and sought to create a safe method of practice.

    So do you think that the Boxing and Judo sections should be removed from the forum as they aren't martial arts?

    If its not a martial art why do we have the Goshin No Kata?
    Why do we have the Atemi waza?

    Sure these aren't practiced in randori, but I think you need to realise that Judo IS a martial art and it is a combat sport as well. Sadly the sporting aspect is eclipsing the martial side but there are groups sauch as the British Judo Council who practice all aspects as wished by Kano himself.

    MAP member Jim, in Oz, is such a practitioner of Judo as well.

  10. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    i have read the kodokan in depth. i never said kano wasn't a martial artist. he learnt ju-jitsu before developing the sport of judo.

    why do we have the Goshin No Kata? Kano wanted to preserve some traditional ju-jitsu within his new sport.

    i think we need to define the word 'sport' and the term 'martial art'.

    to practice sport is to practice for competition. like people train in football for a football match. that is what they are training for, the match. judo is learnt for shiai (contest).
    it is true, some people learn this sport with no intention of ever taking part in contests and do it merely for the enjoyment and fitness aspect. this reinforces my claim to it being a sport as sports are also taken up to keep fit and to be enjoyed.
    as are martial arts of course, but more so in sports.

    Martial arts, are arts of war. which basically mean they are meant for real life situations, not SPORTING contest. martial arts such as TKD, therefore, can be tinkered with to become a sport aswell. traditional TKD did not involve head guards and gloves. TKD as a self defence system is a MA. TKD with head guards and gloves and a referee is a SPORT.

    JUDO is not, and has never been intended, to be an art of war or a system of self defence. the fact that it is an effective method of defending ones self is irrelevent. a footballer can channel a lot of energy into a kick of a ball which can be transfered over into a self defence technique ie kicking an attacker. does this mean that football can be considered a MA? no, of course not.
    JUDO is the sporting aspect of ju-jitsu, if someone wants to learn to defend themselves, they learn ju-jitsu, TKD, JKD etc. if they wanna learn a sport (martial art orientated) JUDO is a great choice.

    please read this post properly before replying as its frustrating when peolpe say things like:

    "so you reckon (this/that/the other)"
    when i have said nothing of the sort

    one final word: many judo site refere to judo as a martial art. i don't why this is since thay must of read the kodokan before constructing such sites. my only thought on this is judo just gets natually grouped in with martial arts as its so similar with coloured belts and so-forth. also judo is alot more commercial when described as a MA.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
  11. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    have a loko here http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=martial art

    martial art
    Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.

    martial art

    n : any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport; "he had a black belt in the martial arts"

    end of descussion me thinks

    Last edited: Nov 26, 2003
  12. Cain

    Cain New Member

    ROFLMAO!!! Good one Sub :D

    Judo not a martial art? :rolleyes:

  13. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    so? you have found a dictionary that lists judo under martial arts. whats that prove?
    if that definition is to be taken as gospel then sambo isn't a martial art. and niether is boxing ( i never thought boxing was but i think cain was trying to imply it is earlier).

    look at this which i found on a different martial arts web site. funily enough, it includes your dictionary reference. :-


    The term "martial art" is used in (at least) two different ways. This
    can be confusing. Some dictionary definitions only make things worse.

    The dictionary definition handy at the moment defines a martial art
    as "Any of several Oriental arts of combat or self-defense, as karate,
    judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as a sport."

    That definition is guaranteed to offend just about everyone who reads
    this group.

    Typically this group uses "Martial Art" in one of two ways:

    1) The first definition is a generic one, which defines a "Martial Art"
    as the study of any kind of combat and/or self-defense techniques.

    This definition includes non-oriental arts like boxing. This definition
    includes both those arts practiced primarily as a sport, and those arts
    practiced primarily for self-defense. This definition includes those
    arts that emphasize only physical technique. This definition also
    includes those arts that emphasize a philosophical or mental aspect in
    addition to physical techniques. In its broadest usage, this definition
    includes learning how to drive a tank or drop bombs out of a plane as a
    Martial Art. This explains the somewhat facetious references you will
    see to "Gun Fu", the martial art of learning how to use firearms
    (implying, as the dictionary definition does, that a martial art must
    be oriental to be legitimate).

    2) The second definition is much narrower, and draws a distinction
    between a "Martial *ART*" and a "Martial *WAY*". To offer a gross

    A martial *art* is the study of an art that emphasizes only physical
    techniques. Perfection of technique is the primary concern.

    A martial *way* emphasizes the study of both physical techniques and
    a philosophical or mental aspect as well. Perfection of the self is
    the primary concern.

    The emphasis on this distinction is very clear for those arts that have
    Japanese names.

    Typically, Japanese martial *art* style names end in "jutsu", such as
    "jiu-jutsu", "aiki-jiujutsu", or "ken-jutsu".

    Typically Japanese martial *way* style names end in "do", such as
    "ju-do", "aiki-do", or "ken-do".

    A lot of bandwidth has been wasted by those arguing about whether something
    is or isn't a martial art, without first establishing which definition -
    including the dictionary definition - is being used.

    According to the dictionary definition, boxing is *not* a martial art.
    According to definitions one and two, above, boxing *is* a martial art.

    According to the dictionary definition and definition one, above, karate
    *is* a martial art. According to definition two, above, karate (frequently
    written as karate-do) is *not* a martial art (it is a martial *way*).

    In the end, it is really the attitude of the individual doing the
    practicing that determines whether, for *them*, what they are learning
    is a "martial art" or a "martial way". The person standing next to you
    in your school may or may not be practicing with the same attitude as
    you are - one of you may be treating what you learn as a "martial way",
    and the other may be approaching the same material as a "martial art".

    EDIT: found this here by the way
  14. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    ok if ur gonna create ur own defintion rather than the one that's in the ENGLISH DICTIONARY which i think we are all typing right now (at least i'm trying to :p) then i could say that qwertyuiop means martial art.

    I wasn't pointing to it listing judo (altho it DOES that helps) It lists judo as a combat art that you are denying.

    Judojedi said:
    "any kind of combat"

    So by ur own defintion it is a martial art.

    So becasue an MA can be practiced primairly in a sport form (which often increases it's combat efectiveness) that means it isn't an MA?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2003
  15. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    No it is not, or rather this was not Kano's intention. Kano never really intended for Shiai to develop, again, refer to Kodokan Judo.

    Randori is freeplay designed to improve skill, I'm not out there with the sole intention of winning, but rather developing my skills.

    Shiai, you are out there to beat your opponent.

    Ones competitve and the other is about development, for you to miss this point underlines your lack of understanding.

    I'm off to dig out 'Kodokan Judo' by Jigaro Kano and some of the Syd Hoare books since your so fond of quotes.

  16. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin

    Just because one book doesn't make a reference to it being a martial art, doesn't mean it isn't one.

    Just because Kano did not specifically write "Judo is a martial art", it doesn't mean that Judo isn't. The majority of the Judo community will concur that Judo IS a martial art. If Kano hadn't meant for it to be a martial art, I'm pretty sure he would have made that clear somewhere.

    This seems to be another "I am right, and you are all wrong" debate to me.
  17. WhiteWizard

    WhiteWizard Arctic Assasain

    I seem to remember judo being developed years ago and not intentially for sport so what do you want to call it throw type playing
  18. totality

    totality New Member

    on a sidenote more related to the actual question than your argument, calling judo mma is completely ridiculous. there is a significant difference between mma and nontraditional ma. these terms are not to be used interchangeably, thank you :D.

    quick opinion-judo=tma
  19. 4-n-zics

    4-n-zics New Member

    I study Kodokan Judo through Karl Geis Ryu Fukakukai International (also study Tomiki Ryu Aikido and Shindo Muso Ryu Jyodo through the same) and have never trained to compete. In fact, competition was frowned upon in this organization. I train in Judo because its principles and techniques go hand-in-hand with the principles and techniques of Aikido and Jyodo...

    I am new to this forum, but am a long time member of several other (non martial art) forums and have always wondered what the point of an argument (OVER THE INTERNET) is all about.

    If you feel that Judo is a sport only, so be it...

    If you feel that Judo is a Martial Art, so be it...

    If you feel that Judo is both a Martial Art and sport, so be it...

    I, for one, feel that Judo is both... just like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, and any other form of 'Martial Art' that also includes, but is not limited to, forms of competition...
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2003
  20. fluffydoc

    fluffydoc Carry On MAPper

    Didn't stop you taking part though did it?;)
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