Judo came from ju jitsu

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Floorismyfriend, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Floorismyfriend

    Floorismyfriend New Member

    Re: Re: Judo came from ju jitsu

    Did the business men come up with judo because they thought ju jitsu was too violent?
    Samurais are the US Navy Seals, british Special air services, french GIGN of their time. They Ate slept and breathed combat. From swords bows to hand to hand combat. If you wanted to learn a self defense style wouldn't you rather learn from a people who centered their whole lives around it?
  2. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    Re: Re: Re: Judo came from ju jitsu

    No.U've misunderstood what i've said (prob my fault).Kano was apparently charged with the task of creating Judo for whatever reason. ONE explanation i have heard is that his form of JJ was favoured for a new sport becasue it was less vioent, did not involve the use of wepons (katans etc bcame illegal to carry in japan aroundthe same time).

    The emporer, altho not particulary loving the westners, thought that this social reform would be good for Japan. But apparently the emporer wanted these reforms as well.

    This is just one aspect i was contributing. With so mnay factors involved within the creation of Judo and teh amount of history that relies on how we perseve individuals or entire nations opinions, it is very hard to say which is correct.

    Iwas simply trying to add another ine of argument.It's not my personal belief i have no feelings for whatever account of the REASONS of whay Judo came about. IMO when considering any MAs' history it is important to take a holistic approach taking in several acounts of what happened and not declaring one to be the out right...right one.But keep in the back of ur mind "this is how i think it may have happened but it could have happened this way."
  3. Floorismyfriend

    Floorismyfriend New Member

    Thank you for clarifying that.
  4. Trent Tiemeyer

    Trent Tiemeyer Valued Member

    Judo came from JiuJitsu, and Brazilian JiuJitsu came from Judo. Your point?
  5. Terry Matthes

    Terry Matthes New Member

    Hi Floorismyfriend, what martial art do you take and at what school. I'm just curious? Sorry for the question but we get a lot of people in here who have never seriously done any MA (I'm not saying you're one of them). It's just arguing with somone who has never trained is kind of pointless as I'm sure you can see. Also their views tend to lean more towards "This art is better than that art" instead of looking at what the purpose of the art is. This is also were most (if not all) of the "street fighting" threads come from.
  6. snailfist

    snailfist Valued Member

    As far as my reading can make out, Jigoro Kano wanted to make ju-jitsu a little safer so he dropped strikes, eyepokes etc.

    However, once this had been done various aspects of ju-jitsu needed to be sharpened up a little to accomodate this.

    For example, Ju-jitsu and judo have different turn-ins for throws such as ogoshi or ippon. The judo one is a lot faster because you can't use a strike to disorientate your opponent. (many people, however, find the ju-jitsu turn-in easier to execute more precisely).
  7. stump

    stump Supersub

    THe problem with judo throws without a gi is that people have trouble adapting them....once you get yourself into the right mentality its quite simple.....

    Adapting....the best quality a martial artist can have!!!!
  8. BruceForever

    BruceForever New Member

    Even there's difference between Ju-jitsu and Judo, does it matter?

    Kendo will chop everything into pieces, the swwordship in Kendo is the strongest on the earth! Samurai rules!

    Bruce Lee rules!

    Oh you know what, whatever you are, i can use a gun and hunt you down within a second
  9. Sub zero

    Sub zero Valued Member

    Yes you could.

    But by your own logic i could chop ur gun into pieces with my Kendo sowarmanship.
  10. warren

    warren Valued Member

    judo throw's are faster than jiu jitsu throw's you say,i'd say it all depends on the person who is doing the throw,as for the strike's slowing you down you could try striking at the same time as you block
  11. redbull

    redbull New Member

    while some judo throws are difficult to do without a judo gi or at least a shirt such as morote seonage, a good mayority of the throws can be done with out a gi and can be effectively used in any street fight. Some examples osoto gary, uchi mata (over the neck), ouchi, kouchi, kata guruma, ura nage, etc.

    As for the history of judo it was developed by Jigoro Kano who was himself a jujutsu practitioner.
  12. Furikuchan

    Furikuchan New Member

    Okay, anyone that tries to tell me that judo does not teach self-defense is kidding themselves. You try to take some of these competition throws on concrete instead of a nice soft mat.
    (Especially when the judoka in quesiton is using you as his ukemi pad...)
    Going for the legs is a nice idea. That's why we have a throw called Morote Gari. Hold-downs might not be as practical (*raises hand* Found that one out the hard way.) but your chokes will be enough to put any good-sized man out.
    Yes, Judo came from Jujitsu, which, as we all know, was practiced for somewhere between 600-1000 years in japan before Judo ever hit the scene. And Dr. Kano didn't start this junk until 1882, making judo a very very young martial art in the grand scheme of things.
    Yet, judo has its merits. The entire point of Dr. Kano's refining jujitsu was to aid smaller people, without the physical strength to hit really hard, in being able to fight.
  13. redbull

    redbull New Member

    I second that.
  14. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

  15. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I'm not kidding myself. My argument is that with purely a competetive Judo background you leave huge gaps in your self defence training, not least of which would be an inability to block correctly. Going for the legs is a good example of where Judo needs little refinement to be very powerful, but most of the other throws will require a somewhat different entry for opponents not deliberately letting you get close. With a little extra tuition, a Judoka become a very competant self defence student, but you find that old habits die hard.

    You mentioned falling on your opponent outside. Firstly this is overkill: get a good throw on someone on a hard surface and they're not getting back up any time soon. Secondly it puts you in a very bad position for self defence: on the floor, looking down. If the attacker has a friend your competition habits will probably have got you in a lot of trouble now.

    My final point is that there is no training for defence against weapons in most Judo clubs. If you're not interested in weapons training, that's not a huge problem. But if you want to get good at all round self defence, at some point you have to learn to defend against weapons. Blunt weapons use a lot of the same techniques as punches, but for small sharp weapons, the last thing you want to do is throw someone, as you rely on being able to control the knife all the way through the throw. One false move and anywhere the knife touches on the way down will be bleeding (force of a throw + sharp edge = a very strong cut). As such, while having Judo as the only possible defence is better than nothing, it isn't ideal.
  16. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    IMHO a normal punter trying to cave your head in with a blunt weapon leaves them extremely open to Judo style techniques.

  17. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Yes, but if you've not trained for it then you'll have a degree of uncertainty there that could cause a moment's hesitation. I think it's all about comfort zones. The judo comfort zone is generally being right up next to the opponent with a solid grip on him. from several feet away against a stick-wielding aggressor, the competition judoka will be outside his comfort zone and will therefore not necessarily react in time to use his judo.
  18. Hybrid_Killer

    Hybrid_Killer New Member

    You've made some nice points aegis but i think about it this way.About this *comfort zone* thing i disagree.In a fight a decent judoka with no experience in any other art will back off a little and let the other guy attack...a good judoka only needs a small chance to throw u and then end the fight quickly with a choke or arm bar.

    A example of this if the attacker used a front kick or side kick he is vulnerable and off balance when raising his knee to throw the kick and when the leg is coming back after the kick is finished...the seconds it takes to do these things is easily long enough for the judoka to throw u and end the fight.

    Same thing with punches....fights usually start when people are angry and when angry people punch the punch is much more obvious and they usually overstep after the attack....even a small thing like having one of your feet stepping forward and the judoka can pull off a Hiza Guruma(thanks for the example saikyou)

    Another thing:during training its very easy to have a perfect defensive stance that seems unbreakble.But in a real fight when people are shouting and the blood is boiling keeping a stance that made u invincible in training is very hard in a real situation.

    I take judo kickboxing and tae kwon do and the extra striking abilities are a very good combo for a judoka. like u said aegis this little bit of extra training can make a judoka really powerful.
  19. wallatu

    wallatu New Member

    Ju jutsu never involved the use of weapons. Ju jutsu is a system for unarmed combat. Ken jutsu was a system for sword combat, Bo jutsu for bo (long stick), Yari jutsu for spear, etc.

    Before the 16th century all these systems were usually trained as a whole under the heading bu jutsu (Martial art). In the beginning of the 17th century Japan was united under the Tokugawa clan and the feudal wars declined, lessening the need for complete warrior schools.

    This is when pure ju jutsu (and ken jutsu, etc) schools really started emerging.

    Jigoro Kano did train ju jutsu (Tenjin-Shinyo style, one of several hundred styles at that time and later Kito-ryu), under several instructors and was incredibly skilled. He was never a big boy as young and during his education he had to invent new things to handle opponents that were twice his size. Reportely he wanted to reform ju jutsu, not create a new martial art.

    He wanted a system that was a physical education, a martial art and a training of the spirit.

    His new system was created on modern scientific principles, rejecting techniques that did not conform to these principles.

    A few years later he created Kodokan Judo as a formal system, with the do part ("the way") being an integral part of the system change. While Ju jutsu was a system for self-defence, judo became a way of life, developing the person as a whole, atleast how Kano allegedly saw it.

    So judo did develop from ju jutsu, but that does not in any way diminish either.

    As for judo and ju jutsu vs self defence, there is no doubt that judo can be used for self defence. Like someone said, try a hip throw on concrete... But the devil is in the details.

    If you train a system that has self defence as the main focus, and self defence prinicples run through everything, you think about other things too.
    For me this would be a bad idea and I would not do it unless I lost my balance. I would try to remain standing, since that would give me distance to my opponents strikes and kicks and it would prepare me for his mates that might or might not be around.

    Another thing is the assumed skill level of our opponents.
    We never assume that our opponent is a poor player. If I get into a fight I have to assume that my opponent knows his stuff, and all my training and techniques must assume the same.

    This is the fundamental difference between judo and ju jutsu. There is no doubt that a judoka will kick some a** but we are now touching on the purpose of the art. The purpose of judo is to be a system for physical education and mental disipline first and a martial art second. The purpose of ju jutsu is to be a martial art first and a system for physical education and mental disipline second.

    A ju jutsu ka will generally be better equipped for self defence than a judo ka, all other things being equal.

    I'm not saying that a judo ka will not be able to take care of him self, especially not if he has been traning the combat side of judo too, but I'm speaking on a general basis.

    This is turning into the same old returning wall ****ing contest that appears on all martial arts forums from time to time, even since the old Usenet days. My art is better than yours, etc etc, but that is only a valid question if we add a part, My art is better than your for <insert purpose here>. Some arts are better than others at certain things. But that does not make an art fundamentally better or worse than another.

    I would not want to get into a newaza fight with a judoka, he'd probably break my arm. So? Does that mean that judo is better than ju jitsu? No, I means that judo as a system makes it's students better at newaza faster. I can get as good as any judoka in newaza, I'll just use a lot longer to do it, since we don't train it as much.

    So stop marking territory, it does not accomplish anything.
  20. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Hi Wallatu, welcome!

    Who's trying to mark teritory?

    Most of the people disscussing on this thread are Ju Jitsuka, just like yourself ;)


Share This Page