Judging at a Open Tournament

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by tulsa, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Ok, folks here is a good question for you all, IF you where to go to an open tournament and they wanted you (a Kuk Sool Black Belt) to judge how would you judge forms. We all know Hyung Bub (well most of us do) but TKD and other martial arts do not use this. You can judge on " if you like it or not ", but is that not a cop-out? Should you not judge them on what they are taught? For those in the WKSA and yes according to the "by laws" you are not to go to open tournaments but we all know most of you disobey and go anyway, what would you judge on? :evil:
  2. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    Though I don't do kuk sool, I would judge based on technical proficiency of the movements, application of power and speed, and consistent tempo, mostly.
  3. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I would question the legitimacy of those who wanted me to judge an art in which I am not belted.
  4. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Well Vegas, then when you go to an OPEN TOURNAMENT do you not get judged by others not in your style? When you judge are you belted in all those styles? This is very hard to do. I agree a closed style competition will be more fair on the judging but open tournaments are fun to go to, fun to compete in and a great learning experience. What I am asking is IF YOU ARE ASKED TO JUDGE IN AN OPEN TOURNAMENT, HOW WOULD YOU JUDGE THE FORMS? I have always had a problem with TKD students locking there elbows when throwing a punch. This goes against everything I have been taught and researched. But when judging a TKD student do I count off for that or not? Or do I just throw numbers out in the air? Do I judge only on if I like it? Do I judge on how much attitude they have? Do I judge on how I would do those forms (if I did them)? Do I judge on focus? Do I judge on speed? Do I judge on ?????? You get my question?

    Since all martial arts have different things taught and for different reasons, how do you judge to be the fairest? :evil:
  5. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    I agree but when seeing a Advanced Kuk Sool Form a Advanced Kung Fu Form power can be hidden and speed deceptive as well as the tempo is always changing. See this is why I am asking this question? To spark a conversation.:evil:
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Personally, I would refuse to judge forms at an open tournament. There can be no meaning to my judgement for someone from another style.

    If the sparring rules are specific, clear and transparent then I'd be happier judging there, but even so I'd have to be careful.

    Honestly though, how can I pass judgement on the form of someone whose style I have no knowledge of?

  7. B3astfrmthe3ast

    B3astfrmthe3ast Warning:Extreme power!!

    It is very tricky judging open tourneys due to what everyone was saying when everyone has a different curriculum at their school it is difficult to decifer what is wrong and what is technically correct but i do think there should be a way to have tkd judges for tkd competitors and the same for the karate and wushu divisions sparring is pretty clear its just the punches to the head make it hard to decide who to give a point to when both competitors score almost simulataneously I love open tourneys i think the commissions Like NBL NASKA should make a way to certify judges for each style
  8. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Are you properly belted in TKD? If not, why do you think you can judge them? This is a slippery slope. The same folks who think they can judge arts outside their own just because they "think" they know what a punch or kick should look like...are the same folks who eventually extend such thoughts into their schools.

    For example, there is a certain GM in Canada who has graded folks and handed out certificates of rank promotion in arts that he is not belted properly in. I guess its all about individual thoughts and personal integrity, or the lack thereof.
  9. cloystreng

    cloystreng Valued Member

    Actually, I change my answer. Every competition with judging must have some sort of guidelines on which the judges are creating their scores from, no matter how vague. I know for taekwondo tourneys that I used to attend, it was something like "speed, power, grace, aesthetic" and maybe one other thing. Some, but most didn't, would judge on correctness of movement, which is hard because people do things differently. They gave leeway.

    If there are no grading criteria thats like judging a boxing match by throwing darts on a wall to see the winner.
  10. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    VM, VM, VM, I have never said I was "belted" in TKD, I have how ever studied with Masters in TKD as well as other styles and picked there brains on what to look for in certain other arts. The patterns I do not know but I do know allot. Watch videos and examine the small things. If you are a good teacher you can. Educated your self as much as you can with other styles and that will make you a MUCH MUCH better martial artist. I am not say you have to be "belted" in all of them, but learn from them all, Just like a football team watches game film of the other teams they learn what they can do better.

    Pro Fighters watch other fighters fights to again LEARN for them.

    Your back handed insult of a highly respect Master in Canada, to me shows disrespect by you. How do you personally know that they are not "belted" in those arts. Do you train with them everyday?

    So now back to the subject at hand!!!!!:evil:
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  11. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    As most of us know when you are judging at a tournament you do it for FREE. You are helping out the tournament as a whole. If you do not feel like going to an open Tournament then fine, we have heard you. Now for the rest of us: let's continue:evil:...
  12. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    You are delusional. Football teams watching game film of other football teams is NOTHING like judging an open tournament where you are judging arts that are not your own. LOL at your picking brains.

    As for the GM in Canada, there is nothing wrong with saying that a GM giving out Master rank in arts he is not properly belted in has no integrity. I don't care if you studied some variant of Hapkido for 100 years...it doesn't mean you can just assign some supposedly strenuous test and then give out high level rank in TKD or TSD or KSW etc etc etc. Nope, if you are promoting someone, it just makes sense that you should have atleast the same rank in that art.
  13. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    You still did not understand VM, I never said they were the same. So that is that.

  14. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    But how do you know this was done? Do you have first hand evidence you can share? If not I stand by my original statements! :evil:
  15. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Because this is proudly plastered on their own website. :eek:
  16. Little Robin

    Little Robin Valued Member

    I would like to weigh in on the original question.

    I have been a Kuk Sool black belt for going on 20 years but have competed and judged in many open tournaments. As such I have seen first hand what can happen to final scores when judges are unfamiliar with stylistic approaches. More specifically I have seen how Kuk Sool forms - when seen for the first time by an unfamiliar judge - get severely penalized! Back then most western MA practitioners were hard stylists and didn't know what to make of it.

    However, it didn't take too long for them to figure it out and soon many of the Kuk Sool stylists were placing or winning along side the others. Really it was just a matter of exposure and time, then judges were able to discern a good rendition of Ki Cho Hyung from a mediocre one, and compare that to a good vs mediocre Tae Geuk Hyung or Heian Shodan or whatever. The same was true for Kuk Sool judges - you just become familiar with the stylistic differences and then look for basically the same essential elements.

    In fact I remember at an informal "Fun Tournament" our Master had the parents of the students do the judging...and the outcomes were not off target at all!
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2012
  17. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice J├Âtunn

    it could be worth reading this document, especially appendices 2,3 & 4 which show the criteria used by the UKNAS open tournaments

    They tend to have a concept of "absolute quality" (thats my term not theirs) simply based on the form as presented - with the judges requiring no pre-knowledge of the form. All that matters is how well the form compares against the criteria, and against the other competitors. It doesn't even matter if a form is cut short - all that matters is what IS performed, and how that compares against the other performers
    I don't claim whether that right or wrong, I have no place in the argument. However I thought you'd like an example of what seems to work
    Its worth the read
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  18. sensei_dez

    sensei_dez Valued Member

    I don't have much experience in the matter but the first thing that comes to mind is watching for any kind of uncertainty, even if they do something that is contrary to your own art's theories, they should do so with confidence and purpose. and you can look at the crispness of linear moves and smoothness of circular moves, from what I've seen those are universal indicators of an artist's proficiency.
  19. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Actually, I remember way back when Kuk Sool tournaments were ALWAYS open tournaments. So much for your line of thinking huh Vegas?
  20. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    How does the fact that they used to have open tournaments in any way counter VM's line of thinking? Are you saying that "Back in the day" things were never done in a less-than perfect way, or what?

    I'm going to echo Mitch here. If there is a consistent, streamlined, unbiased and transparent scoring system, then it can be applied to any movement and so long as the judges and competitors understand this system, it's a perfectly workable plan.

    Unfortunately at every "open" tournament I've been to it's been (at best) judges from different arts fumbling with vague, unelaborated criteria like "power" and "discipline" until finally deciding on the ones that look most like what they personally practice, and at worst, fat middle aged black belts with "tough bearded guy" attitudes upscoring the one that does everything louder and tenser than the others, failing that, whichever one stands out. Sometimes all you have to do is get upside down a little bit and it blows their minds. A couple from my school once went to one of these years ago. They entered at the last minute and made everything up as they went along and won first and second because A) The judges had no idea what they were looking at, and B) It looked cool.

    Judging "open" merit-based competitions is much easier because it comes down to "how do you score, what can you not do" and you're golden. Every point or non-point has a concrete, articulable reason.

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