One of the ITFs (the one headed by GM Choi Jung Hwa) has changed the name of pattern ‘Ju Che’ to ‘Ko Dang’: I think it’s great that at least one of the groups has changed the name, although I would have much preferred a whole new name. Only the name of the pattern is reverting back, the moves remain as ‘Ju Che’. Now it’ll be Umpire - “which pattern are you going to perform?” Competitor - “Ko Dang” Umpire - “which Ko Dang?” There is of course no way ITF-NK is gonna change and I can’t see Tran’s group doing it or they’ll be accused of copying Choi’s group. How do you think the independent groups who do ‘Ju Che’ will react? Now they’re not trying to appease the NK government by praising the ‘philosophy’ of one of the most evil leaders of all time? Rob
I was hoping they'd bring back Ko-Dang in it's original form. I loved that pattern (easiest BB pattern ever!!)
^^^ I like "Ko Dang 1" too, it's a nice little pattern! "Ko Dang 2" is impressive when done well, unfortunately not seen that too often. It seems to be a 'young' person's pattern (yeah I know we can all give examples of people in their 50s who can do it well but I'm talking about the 'average' TKDist).
if ever there was better time to show tribute to Gen Choi this waould have been it Chang Hon Tul. Im not sure Ko Dang was a great idea what about the origina Ko Dang?. Anyways everyone gets a bee in there bonnet about the name Juche but you rarely hear the Tae Geuk Il-Yeo slated and its diagram is a swatica
Chang Hon would have worked well. There is nothing evil about a swastika, it's been a religious symbol for a long time. The pattern diagram is a left facing swastika, which is usually linked with Buddhism. To compare it to Ju Che the pattern meaning would need to be "Tae Geuk Il-Yeo is named after the philosophy of the ‘Final Solution’…” No one would ever follow this, just as no one should spout the Ju Che rubbish IMHO. Rob
Im well aware that the swatstika has been a religious symbol for centuries but would you wear it on a tshirt to sunday dinner with mother? Like comunism juche probably looked good on paper but in practice not so cleaver. However I do like the idea that man being the master of his own destiny and stuff.
It’s my understanding that the swatstika has much less stigma in the East. Would I wear one? No, but that’s because I’m not part of a religion that uses it, nor Native american, nor Roman. If I was then yes, clearly it wouldn’t be a red t-shirt though! The pattern meaning is somewhat abridged, a more accurate version is: Rather ironic considering North Korea was the second largest recipient of international food aid in 2005. Despite the self reliance (and all the aid, of course) millions have died from famine. I believe the literal translation is something along the lines of "main body" or "subject", but the pattern meaning states it’s named after the philosophy – the words “final solution” are pretty innocent but the philosophy is very different, to go back to my earlier example. Rob
regardless of what its been renamed its better to have kept the pattern than scrap it as its an excellent pattern.A true test of technique.
the pattern remains the same with the exception of the jumping reverse turning kicks which have been changed to jumping reverse hook kicks.
No problem with changing the name, but why now after 7 years (ITF C were formed in 2001 I believe) and why oh why have they renamed it kodang, to me this is disrespectful... if its such a big deal why not just insist members learn Kodang instead - that would be the proper course of action!! Furthermore, the statement is incorrect as it states “..tul of "Ju Che" will be known as it was originally created by our founder General Choi Hung Hi as "Kodang". However, Kodang is a different and separate pattern to Juche. Kodang was never renamed Juche at all. Kodang was dropped for and replaced with Juche in 1985/6. Furthermore, it is well known that Juche was actually designed by Master Park, Jung Tae in the early eighties and not General Choi himself, though of course General Choi would have had the final say-so on it! Juche, like it or hate is is part of the Ch'ang Hon history.. history should remain, no matter if we like it or not.. it should never be erased in this way! Stuart
I can’t work out why they changed it to Ko Dang either, my guess would be that any other name wouldn’t be chosen by Gen. Choi , that way they can’t be accused of not practising ‘true’ or ‘original’ TKD (a claim the ITFs love to use at every opportunity!). I don’t think they should change to learning the original Ko Dang necessarily, there’s nowt wrong with the pattern, and the problem was purely the name. Juche is part of ITF TKD history, it also contradicts the TKD philosophy set down by Gen. Choi. I applaud ITF-C (and of course the ICTF) for their actions to remedy this. So what are you going to do Stuart? Do you teach Ko Dang, Juche, or both? If you teach it are you going to change the name? If so to what? There is no way I could ask my students to draw inspiration from the North Korean communist politic ‘philosophy’.:woo: Rob
During my 4th Degree grading I was asked why was the day they changed Ko-Dang to Ju-che the darkest in Taekwon-do's history (And dark means bad, not sad as in GM Park and Gen Choi's death). On a personal level, I think they shouldn't have changed the name, but kept the original, bring ko-dong back as a 2nd degree pattern and just change the patterns to 25, and just erase the philosophy of the 24 patterns representing story, the same way Ko-dang was erased.
How did you answer the question? That question seems to show the feelings of at least 1 of PUMA’s top dogs, I wonder if they will follow ITF-C’s lead. So you think they should have kept the name ‘Ju Che’? Why? Rob
Why keep the name? It's still part of TKD history, the same reason I think Ko-dang should be in as well. The short of it was I said that it went against all the teachings of 'Morale Culture' and then I went off on one saying I personally thought that it was a backhander for financial and promotional gains for Taekwondo(The Gen was an ambassador before this, so he knew how to work politicians!) Well, you do get nervous during gradings..........!
Why do we learn pattern meanings, if it’s cos of TKD history I can see your point. If it’s to draw inspiration (as is generally the stock answer straight out the encyclopaedia) than I gotta disagree. There have been many ‘dark’ times in history, the best thing to do is learn from them and move on IMHO. As your examiner said naming the pattern ‘Ju Che’ was a dark time in ITF TKD and surely the best thing to do is alter it and move forward, it will always be part of the history. I’m sure the honesty and candidness (that can’t be a word) got you more respect from the examiners than spouting the ‘official’ blurb at them. LOL at going off on one at gradings, I now exactly what you mean – nerves seem to make my mouth work completely independently of my brain. Rob PS ref your sig – Love you too!!
You mean the line "free of any influence from religion, government and political influence"! So does Won-Hyo, Joong-Gun and So-San and others as they also contain religious or political ideals if we dig a bit deeper like we have done with Juche!! Perhaps they are next to be renamed I understand people not liking Juche because of its underlying reasons, but I would guess the Japanese Taekwon-do students dont like Joong-Gun much either, Im sure there are other examples as well!! Like I said, why now after 7 years of the ITF-C being formed! The ICTF did it pretty early on in their exsistance! I teach Juche, I am not going to change it. I am not part of the ITF any more, so when they say "Jump".. I ask "Why?" not "how high"!! If there was a worldwide concensus on it, then maybe I would consider it (if I agreed with the what name it was changed to). I think the "perfroming patterns to reflect who they are named after" thing is a bit of an ask, as there was never really anything to help a student do this anyway, its generally a nice idea that cannot be put into practice IMO. For example, do you students do Won-Hyo with similar inspiration.. and how is this different from Do-Sans performance, aside for the movements being different.. its not is it! With regards to Juche, IF you must draw inspiration from the pattern meaning somehow, Gen Choi left an "Official" meaning that can be interpreted in a number of ways (I think that was what he intended, as its a double edged sword)! Official meaning: "that man is the master of everything and decides everything. In other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny." and though this may be part of a certain dictators docterine.. it is not the whole thing and simply a line as part of the BS of it all and even then, the world knows this docterine (in its entirety) doesnt work anyway... Kodang (Cho Man Sik) can be seen as following this way of think also as he chose his own way in the world too.. even though it was dangerous! It is only now that more and more come to understand why Juche became one of the patterns and how it appeased Kim Il Sung in return for funding, but all the patterns are a history lesson, not a way of living - no ones gonna turn Buddist cos they do Won-Hyo!! I agree its a black mark, but its a black mark that meant TKD got to where it got to and without it TKD probibly would have got where it has today! Thinking about it, I personally, I would had added some more to the explanation to describe this part of TKDs history!! At best I would have expected them to chose a different name to Kodang, not least as Kodang is already a pattern of TKD for many but also because simply using Kodang instead of Juche doesnt make sense as things are intrinsic in the pattern that relate to Kim still, like the pattern diagram representing the Baekdu Mountains for example. This is a hidden reference back to Kim who claims to have been born there (he wasnt apparently, but it too forms part of his docterine he rules his people by), so its actually a slap in the face of Kodang who is reputed to have been executed by him and hence why i said earlier that if they believed in this so much (adhoring Juche because of its hidden issues) a better move would be to drop it and request all members do Kodang instead! Stuart
I would be highly interested to know how TKD students actually draw inspiration from the minimal pattern definitions in regards to pattern performance (which is the whole stock answer)? Maybe expanded versions as a general sourse of inspiration, but not the 2 line official versions and then we pick and chose as they are not our historical figures (unless your Korean of course). i draw more inspiration thinking of Churchill than I do thinking of Do-San, but enjoy the history none the less! Yes, but in a few years, TKD students will not know of this history, they will think Juche was always Kodang, just like many newer students never knew that the sine wave changed let alone the different reasons/POVs given for these changes! Stuart
I don’t think it was Won-Hyo and Joong-Gun beliefs or ideals that led to them being used, I think it was the way they lived their lives. The digging deeper ties in with how inspirational the pattern meanings can be. All my students know (hopefully) the stock answers but I always explain a little deeper and encourage them to look at them themselves if they with to. I’ll explain that Dan Gun is about perseverance getting you what you want, as shown by the bear. Do San is about working for what you believe in and helping one another as he showed working for the rights of Korean immigrants in the USA and against the Japanese invaders. Won Hyo gave the general population a choice a freedom to decide for themselves, until his teaching you had to be able to read to study Buddhism, he gave the illiterate working class the choice of following the religion, along with working to unite the conquered people following Silla’s victory. You get the picture. Then when you dig deeper into Ju Che, well – you know! Why not 7 years ago? Not a clue, maybe they have only just given up working with ITF-NK or maybe it’s trying to build ITF TKD in South Korea. The 1st thing I’d have done where I in your situation would have been to drop Ju Che, well one of the 1st anyway. Rob
Never said it was, they just also fall inline with the policy stated! yes, and I love the way you use them, but thats a general inspiration thing and it doesnt change the pattern as performed which is what Gen Choi stated! Unfortunatly, most other groups or schools do not follow your lead here, so the basic interpretation is the only interpretation for them! I do, but the official meaning can give inspiration as well, as it simply implies a person should make their own destiny and be responsible for their own decisions. they never tried working with ITF-NK AFAIK and Choi Jung Hwa was reputed to have split the ITF because he didnt like the NK connection.. hence why now and not then!! Whats "my situation"? Stuart
