So we don't have to hi jack the other thread I thought we should move the convo here. So what do people think is the third move in Joong Gun an upward palm block or as Rag says a strike to the groin or jaw?
I use the inverse ridgehand thing to catch their fist. pull into the "parked position when kicking. then the upward "block" break their elbow.
Upward Palm Block. But I don't see why not a strike, not sure about striking to the jaw though... *sound of crack of finger*
Actually it would the fourth move. The ready stance in itself is a wristlock. According to Choi your blocking a punch. Kicking the shin and then your opponent somehow punches again and you for some reason decide it's best not to do a decent block but to step forwards and palm block it upwards. It can be used for the application HwaRang just gave. Or it can be used other ways. The kick is to your opponents REAR thigh so that you hit the femoral artery. [Anybody who's studied pressure points will know the effect of being hit there and will understand this movement.] There's another application that involves the wristlock, then the ridgehand "block" is yanking their elbow outta place. A kick in the front leg for good measure and then the upwards block is hyperextending their arm. But I can't draw that with stick figures.
Another top illustration Rag ,but I would agree with your application, or maybe an upward strike to the elbow. Either way simular applications that can be adapted for the situation at the time.
Actually I think of the Fist to palm, side kick and knife hand sequence in Hwarang as a throw. I also think of the guarding block in bending ready stance then side kick in Won-Hyo as a throw with simultanious armlock. Whats that? You were being sarcastic? Oh.... Actually Liam you may be interested to know that the word 'block' is actually an innaccurate translation from the Japanese 'uke' and 'barai' which translate accurately as 'recieve' and 'sweep' respectively. There are no blocks - only motions that can be applied to multiple circumstances. The thing to remember is patterns were originally 'shorthand' for manuals of self-defence techniques. Applications were multiple. You could think of it as a block, an upward strike to the elbow, an armtrap and lock followed by a throw... whatever you want as long as you can see it working. The best application is the one that's most effective in a given circumstance. On that basis I vote for the combo Ragnarok gave.
Yea 'double forearm blocking the correct' is pretty good, even its name tells you that it is correct!
Alexander - Yes I was being mainly sarcastic, well done you. I'm sure to be hoenst you could take any move and find other applications for it. There was a letter in MAI this month talking about how one karate guy saw a punch in long stance as a throw rather than a strike, with the retracting hand being used to pull your attacker over your leg. As for your examples I'll just have to agree with you as I don't study the same pattern set as your good self. By this can we also argue that there are no kicks, or strikes of any kind? After all they can all be applied in multiple circumstances?
Kind of. The main reason people argue there should be no blocks is because of the mistranslation. The example of the difference between block and recieve is generally used to open up the imaginationto the multitude of uses the movement has. But a name's just a name and really its just convention to make communication easier. The important part is that the move has multiple uses - the mistake arises when people assume that just because the name is 'block', 'kick' or 'punch' the only use for the movement is as a block, kick or punch.
It's the other way round. Originally the moves are designed for all kinds of things. [Won Hyo's first moves, inwards knifehand, grab the rear ear, twist their head, side punch the jaw. That's a neck snap.] It was in the TKD system that these moves were taken and given singular uses. Kata can be practiced as a series of locks and throws and strikes and takedowns against a single opponent and you can enter and exit the kata wherever. Tul are different. Choi made them against multiple opponents. Hence the reason why these moves become seperated, singular and narrow-mindedness makes them blocks and only blocks. [Infact even his 9th Dans have this attitude]
you could argue that. and if you can make it work in a free environment against a fully resisting opponent, more power to you. what you really have to look at is the original intention behind the moves. and since most of the original developers are dead, well we're kinda stuck with what our instructors tell us. and that becomes a crap shoot. from my understanding, most of the strikes such as kicks and punches are in fact just kicks and punches. it's the more esoteric moves like knife hands, spear thrusts, odd blocks that are the multiple use techniques.
Or a shoulder dislocation (see Karate's Grappling Methods, Abernethy). Or any number of other things. Movements are just movements. As Maverik said, if it can be practically applied I think it's a valid interpretation. Where I disagree with Rags is in how he presents his Instructors' ideas. It is no more true to say "that's a neck snap" than it it is to say "that's an inward knifehand strike followed by yadda yadda yadda". His Instructor believes it can be applied as a neck snap, but that's no more the only interpretation than Gen Choi's is. I suspect that if we talked to Rags Instructor he'd say the same. Mitch
Now you've killed the thread with your common sense talk! Please don't tell anyone that PUMA and a TAGB tkdists agree
Yes. Badly said on my part. That was just one of many applications. *Shocked that TAGBists and PUMA are agreeing!*
OI! PUMA, OUTSIDE NOW!! :yeleyes: I'd like to buy you a pint in this jolly nice beer garden... Who teaches a little PUMA's class in Nottingham Carlos, over the esat side of the city? PUMA agrees with TAGB agrees with GTI! Aaaah, it's like a TKD group hug! Come on, hold hands and lets all sing, "I'd like to teach the world TKD, In perfect harmoneeeeee" Mitch
