JKD and self expression

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Edgeorge, Aug 27, 2010.

  1. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I usually find that when someone has no martial arts expeariance they naturally tend to stand square and all off balance, if they are right handed I tend to get them to stand right side forward for two reasons, firstly they tend to feel more comfortable to start with and secondly because of my weapons background the right side or strong side forward is more favorable because that is usually where the weapon is held.

    But saying that I also encourage them to experiment with both sides and if they feel more comfortable the other way around I wont discourage them because as with the weapons training the stance can and is interchangable.

    For instance with the stick, Long range the strong side or weapons side forward is safer, but at close range it can be safer to have your left or weaker side forward so as to keep your weapon back so as not to get it jammed up and snatched away from you and the empty hand translation crosses over in that you can use a left lead hand to parry and check wilst your right hand is free to hit.

    I think because of the structure of FMA many JKD practioners realised that the FMA had more in commin with them than any other art hence the two marry together well.

    But I have also over the years seen some practioners do what I like to call Badge Collecting in that they seem to want to borrow from lots of arts especially the ones that are in vouge at the time and then they try to blend them together on to get a mish mash of techniques that alsthough look good on the surface they are inherantly weak.

    How many times have you seen people go, Well at long range we will use our Savate and Muay Thai then as we close we drop in to our Kali and then Silat finishing up with our BJJ????? And having a good amount of expeariance in many of these arts I look and say well why have you just done that because if you done that against the FMA guy he would kill you, if you done that against the Thai Boxer he would kill you and so on and so on. These individuals tend to borrow small peices from a number of arts without first totally understanding each and every one of them and understand why those arts would not use those techniques in those particular areas. If you get my drift.

    I am a frim beleiver in that you cant simply just borrow or take peices from another art without first having a good solid grounding in that art, that can be dangerous to the person doing the taking. Yes other arts can help show you how to improve on what you already do, especially if the specialise in a particular area, their strength in that area can give you a better insight and understanding of your own skills, for instance all systems punch, who better to imrove your punching than someone who specialises in punching such as a boxer, but him improving your punching skills does not make you a boxing in the same way that a Muay Thai person can improve your power kicks but it does not make you a Thai Boxer, you have to study those arts more indepth to truely understand those arts before you can say we take this from Muay Thai, we take that from Boxing etc etc etc. Doing something in bits and peices does not make you knowledgable enough to take from it in my opinion.

    And you cant learn to defeat or beat another art simply by studying it a little, again you have to have a good in depth understanding of that art before you even think you can beat it and then it will not matter how hard you try always influence everything you do in the future and you are no longer the same type of fighter that you where before you even looked at the other art/s.

    But to me JKD is not about what side forward you have or how Bruce done it or how anyone esle done it for that matter, my understanding of it is this, JKD is NOT a style, it is NOT a System, it IS however a thought process, a way to train no matter what techniques you employ, it is a whole approach to how you train and why you train, it is a way of constantly improving on the skills you naturally have hence each practioner is different, each practioner becomes a differenttype of fighter to the last each is quite unique.

    And as far as I am concerned if you spend your time trying to look like, trying to act like and tryign to live live Bruce Lee or any other top JKD practioner then you my freind have just missed the whole point and you are nothing more than a product of the hype, you are simply a robot and you have lost your very own personality.

    The most important questions any martial artist should always as is:

    WHY?

    And if the response is 'Because thats how we always do it'

    Ask WHY?

    And if they say 'Well because the founder does it that way'

    You say, SO WHY CANT I DO IT THIS WAY? Especially if it is working well for you.

    Always question and never ever accept the, because thats who we, he, they, us always do it.

    Do it your own way if it works then its right, if it does not then you need to reasses why it does not, it may simply be that you have not trained it enough yet.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2011
  2. jaggernautico

    jaggernautico Valued Member

    love the conversation here and i believe jkd is a process of self discovery that got lost in commercial exploitation. It was something that was sold and thus became something other than its original intent. If its a process --even of scientific street fighting its even further from that core since i dont see many even trying to go there with it. It seems the debate will rage on forever and never settle.
     
  3. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And all this BS about this art will beat that art because is simply that BS.

    No art if done correctly will be beat by another, the only thing that happens is one man using one art beats another man using another, the next day the tables can be turned by two different men from the same opposing arts.

    It is not the art that wins the fight, it is the intent behind the man that wins it.

    Yes everyone beleives that their art is the best, they have to otherwise why art they doing it? But in truth there is no such thing as the best art, just good practioners within the art.

    Without the man and his intent the art is nothing. And just because one individual happened to be exceptional, that does not mean that everyone else in that system is exception, as a matter of fact they could be the worst thing that ever happened to it if you get my drift.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  4. Browneagle

    Browneagle Valued Member

    Beautiful post Pat. Many thanks for your wise and honest words...and the encouragement of this healthy and informative exchange of opinions. It also seems to me that we are on the same page. Like yourself Pat I too see JKD as a process but also as a style that is a product of that process. One that I am glad people endeavour to preserve in its original teachings and material. In understanding the product I will ultimately understand the process. We are not studying Bruce Lee for any reasons different that physicians study Einstiens theories. That is my journey from partiality to emptiness. for me The process is simply to simplify.

    I also agree with sifu Ted wong RIP who said its like a Pyramid. the bottom being footwork being the biggest, the middle is distance and timing, and the smallest section is technique. I can see where you are ultimately coming from with regards to technique even though on the outset it appears that I have a slighlty different outlook than you do. Beyond street fighting or even training I actually believe the same pricipals you spoke of apply to life! Which is why I see Jeet Kune Do as "Martial" as it is an "Art".

    there is no art to art or style to style , all there is ,is artistic simplicity in its highest state, direct subtle motion , causing the most extreme amount of damage through nothing! ! That to me is martial expression.
    So I hope you believe me when I say. No one is trying to be like anyone. no matter what preceptions or prejudices people have of original JKD exponents. We are just learning to shoot the angry and hungry tiger facing us in the head and not the leg when its our last bullet in the chanber..
     
  5. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Browneagle. I agree with you all be it from a different perspective. I have no criticism of either schools of JKD be they original or concepts and I have some very good friends in both camps. The irony of it all is that they are both correct but both different in the same way that they are reading from the same book with their own interpretaion of the words within.

    I am neither concept or original but I follow the principles in my own unique way. You could say I am my own separate school of thought. JKD Principles if you like.

    There is no right or wrong only what works for you and what does not.

    We all seek perfection but chances are we may never actually get their but try we will.

    Where some go wrong is that they take his writings as law and this in it's self blinkers them making them firmly believe that they alone are right and everyone else is wrong when in fact they just simply have a different approach and outlook butbthey all end up in the same place.

    It's like saying forms are useless when you have no idea what the form is meant to achieve. If you don't know why it is done it will always be wrong but if you know and understand why it is done then it becomes a very important tool to your arsenal doesn't it?

    Some martial arts systems have survived not because they are traditional but because they are effective. They only become ineffective when the practitioner has no idea why they are doing it and simply follow on because 'it's traditional'. But then again man fighting man is the oldest tradition on the planet and there are no new ideas or ways of going hand to hand we simy keep reinventing the wheel in that respect.

    There is only one difference between a martial artist and a robot. The robot does it because he is told to. The martial artist always asks why is he doing it and can it be done better and that is all Bruce Lee was trying to tell people. Just a shame only a handful of people actually listened eh!

    Just my thoughts
    Beat regards

    Pat
     
  6. february

    february Valued Member

    All great ideas from a philosophical perspective. All good speaking about journeys from partiality to emptiness, but without proper practical application, or true perspective based on a variety of experience, I don't believe it counts for a huge amount. I.e. It's important to test theory in the lab.

    Browneagle, any chance you could answer my question about your experience/background?
     
  7. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Your absolutely right. That is why I said it annoys me when people take bits from other arts then claim to know the art when they have but a fraction of it. Everything you do has to be tested and worked to death before you can even consider adjusting, removing or adding.

    And yes Browneagle I am curious to know what your experience in JKD and the martial arts in general is and what you base your findings on.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  8. Browneagle

    Browneagle Valued Member

    The same can easily be said about JKD when people haven't even trained in it and decide from Bruces Writings what it was meant to be. That is why I feel the obligation to voice my concerns! Sifu Tommy has tested these original teachings & attitudes growing up in Glasgow, testing their worth as a doorman, sports man, as well as several armed street encouters. He has been trained extensively in other arts including ones taught in the armed forces and full contact Karate when scotland was a highly reputable place to train in it. His Grappling, locks background is extensive and he proudly dispalys training certificates from Inosantos students like Hartsell RIP even though you would not expect that. His opinion is of every bit of value to me as some one like Pats experiences growing up in Hackney, London. Jim Mccan and Rich Carrion in the USA have indeed tested JKD in the stand up portion of their MMA teachings with success. My own experiences in Street/club fights which I could not avoid have confirmed JKDs validity both in approach as well as execution. Even when it comes to preventing trouble!. But don't take my word for it.

    Here is the problem I feel obliged to address with regards to JKD!
    when people say openly it is not a "style" or its just an eclectic mix of styles, so you can do your own and its just as valid.....
    A) They run the risk of missinforming the public and missrepresenting the fact that JKD (not just Junfan Gung fu) is infact an art of its own right

    Anyone who has spoken with or trained with first generation students as well as Inosantos Backyard students will have been informed that JKD was taught to them by Guru inosanto AS A SEPARATE STYLE and Dan is very stringent about who he qualifies to teach Original JKD for those same reasons I mentioned!

    B) They are also undermining the validity of bruces findings who first and second generation instructors are still to this day after many years beginning to realise and understand.

    C) they tend to missunderstand the genius behind the process bruce went through to arrive to his conclusions. This is not something every one can do so credit should be given when the credit is due!

    I have emailed Febuary with my practical background in the arts. To sum it up. Okinawan karate (younger days), Southern Crane Kungfu 3 years (Full contact), MMA with one of Roger Gracies students. (he emphasised it was not for self defence) trained with the fairtex family in thailand in muaythai (really enjoyed this). I do not wish to advertise my FMA & silat experience as it's far too little at best. (badge collection as Pat puts it) but I hope to pursue them Long term as I believe in their approach and observe the aspects congruent with and complimentary to JKD. My JKD experience includes a year and half with WNG including seminars with Tim Tacket and Chris Kent and now 2 months with Tommys group. I must admit Tommys group seems to have Good students students at even the most basic level with good footwork, very good understanding of how to practice basic technique execution and work ethic. He seems to have more focus on practicality through daily reduction and evaluating what seems to be more typical senarios first rather than just adding more & more and showing off the vast knowledge of all 3 Eras of JKD/Junfan he has worked on for 36 years.. He is now also putting the assessment of his students abilities as with regards to what to prioritise in their training too.

    this reminds me of what Bruce said in his martial commentaries about a monk who was told to chew something so many times on one side and then so many times on the other side before swallowing it. He died of starvation in the process of chewing too much. LOL:)
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hi Browneagle. Well I was actually born and bread in Govan in Glasgow and as a kid I flitted back and forth and for a time I stayed in Preisthill. Between that and Hackney I was involved in the gang culture too and having spent quite acme time working the doors o some obscure and rough pubs and clubs over the years I have unfortunetly had more than my fair share of experimentation of what works and what does not.

    Just a matter of clarity
    Best regards

    Pat
     
  10. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Which is terrific if someone's willing to stand there and let you peg them in the nuts or poke them in the eye. Unfortunately, it's very possible to condition yourself to avoid getting tagged in those targets in the first place. Boxers train to avoid getting jabbed in the face all the time. With a slip, they can avoid getting caught flush. And if you don't finger jab someone flush, then you're likely finger jabbing them in the forehead or some other target that's as likely to hurt you as them.

    As a very wise man on this forum once said, "if you can't hit my face with a boxing glove, what makes you think you'll be able to hit my eye with your fingers?"


    Stuart
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    This is a rhetorical rope-a-dope and you know it. Assuming this is true, then it shows that people with more generalized training (who would fare better in a more inclusive format) failed in a more specialized setting (against people trained exclusively for that more specialized setting). Put the same lethwei fighters in the UFC and they'd have a similar problem. It says absolutely nothing about the usefulness of MMA in preparing yourself for something as inclusive as "reality."

    There's more to developing a preservation mentality than simply saying, "in reality, I'd have kicked you in the ghoulies."


    Stuart
     
  12. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And if someone thinks it's as simple as a quick kick in the crown jewels whilst in rushing in ripping your face off and stabbing you repeatedly in the guts then we all need to stop training to fight as its all a waist of time as a quick kick on the nether regions is all I need. Dam I wish I knew that years ago and I wish someone would have told those guys that it did not work on?????

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I call fake on that.
    Any links on that info or just something you read somewhere?
    I cannot see a way that a UFC fighter with a winning record (and much cash to earn) would risk the injury (and loss of standing) potential of competing for no money at all against a nobody.
    If such a thing was common enough knowledge that you (Browneagle) would know about it then it would be ALL over the MMA websites and the fighters involved would be also widely known.
    I've never heard of this story for example (and I've followed MMA since UFC 2).
    That doesn't mean it didn't happen of course...just i'm sceptical until more proof is found.
     
  14. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I must say it's the first time I heard it too and I have not only followed it since UFC 1 but was also heavily involved in the Vale Tudo scene when it first hit the shores of the UK.

    Browneagle. Not to be rude here but to be frank and on reading your brief bio I would seem to me that you have not really spent enough time in JKD to be able to tell people it is a style or not a style. Yes you seem to have a good background in the martial arts in general but you seem to be commenting as if you had a multitude of experience in JKD it's self. Reading all the books on the subject and a couple of years doing it unfortunetly does not give a wealth of experience in any martial art in order to be able to truely dissect it and say what it is and what it is not.

    I am sure Tommy Carruthers is a great exponent of his JKD and I have never really met the man to pass comment on his skills in JKD either. But you make it sound as though he has been doing JKD for around 36 years??? when in fact thats not the case. The longest running practitioners of JKD in Europe are first and foremost Bob Breen (if it were not for him JKD would have been a long time comming to Europe let alone the UK) he is the most knowledgable on the subject in Europe regardless of what others say, this is quickley followed by people such as Rick Young, Terry Barnett and Ralf Jones angain three of the most knowledgable practitioners of JKD in Europe. I know this because I was with Bob Breen for many years and was one of his senior students and fighters as a matter of fact I helped run his Academy for some time and people will tell you I was there 4 hours a day 6 days a week training, I was a fixture if you like.

    Also being taught some Army fighting techniques by your father does not constitute having a great understanding of how the Armed forces train for hand to hand combat and we can be certain those skills have changed even since I learnt them. Yes the basics may be the same but how they are trained and how they have been modified added to amd developed over the years can only be realised by putting and old school hand to hand combat expert and new school hand to hand expert in the room together and getting them to compare notes but the basic hand to hand fighting skills you learn in the army do not really constitute a martial art do they, they are learnt in a very short space of time and you learn the simplest most effective way to kill a man, it has one purpose only and that is not to be defensive, it is to kill plain and simple.

    No one here has said JKD is and eclectic grouping of different systems far from it but I can see why people would say that. But as far as I am concerned it is not and has never meant to be a style and to make it so goes against the grain of the whole philosophy of JKD. Even Bruce is well known for saying (and I do hate quoting him as it makes me look more like a fan and Bruce Lee film junkie as opposed to to martial artist) 'JKD is not a style'.

    And when people say 'I teach JKD how Bruce wanted it taught'??? Well all I can say is, how unless you where a close student do you know how he wanted it taught, how do you know how he would have wanted it taught now???? Remember (and here I go again with the junkie bit) It's just a name...

    Style 'no' way to approach your martial arts 'yes'

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  15. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Just a simple kick in the balls will do it???

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45hWbIy5Fkk"]YouTube - combat ki master[/ame]
     
  16. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    And of course this, this is just for you guys who want to train for it

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7gnB31NnI"]YouTube - Sports Science: "World Record Kick to the Groin" Part 1[/ame]

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a86cQobU-n4"]YouTube - Sports Science: "World Record Kick to the Groin" Part 2[/ame]

    Oooooouuuucccchhhh!!!!!!
     
  17. Browneagle

    Browneagle Valued Member

    Sorry if I've offended the MMA fans with the thought that MMA fighters get knocked out by lethwei boxers. If you wish to question what I've read then question the source. I don't remember where I read it. It was years back. But a good place to start is wikipedia. just type in lethwei it actually touches upon the subject. But My point in the first place was that it doesn't prove anything because they were confined by the rules (as brutal as the matches are) so APOwen? R u correcting me? or agreeing with me? not clear....Nothing more reality based about MMA as there is in boxing.

    What I find interesting is how people distinguish between Vale Tudo, sambo, Lethwei, Sanda, shidokan karakte, MMA based on their inclusiveness but do not distinguish JKD as a style. When infact it does have a specific execution mechanism on punches hits and kicks which take time and patience to perfect, and a range of ways to do things to evaluate your abilities in.

    Yes a kick in the groin is not easy ! EXACTLY and a finger Jab in the eye isn't either (though you'd be surpised how much just attempting it can stun your opponent)
    But that is exactly why the technique, timing, footwork and closing the distance need to be practiced to make them work THE CHUNK OF JKD.

    As far as who is the longest running JKD practitioner I'm not going to get into a debate over that as that again will be based on the definition of original JKD which we will go in circles over. Tommy met Jesse Glover back in the early 70s and believes he learned more about JKD (attitude) from him than anyone else who had more updated material in oakland and LA. He has trained with Inosanto as well but only got concepts from him as I believe it was a public seminar and Dan promissed not to teach original JKD publically.


    As said before I have no doubt in Tuhon Pats experiences and hope to knock on his door one day. No disrespect to Bob Breen ( he is Awsome ) but none of his academys student I've met have ever actually trained with him in anything and whoever they do train in its just boxing and kickboxing not JKD. So I guess we are not as lucky as Pats generation.
     
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I beg to differ on that one, yes Bob is very selective on what he teaches and to whom, he likes to really get to know students before imparting his vast knowledge and I have met quite a few of his lets say new batch of JKD practioners and they know their stuff, if they stayed long enough that is of course.

    If you firmly beleive JKD is a Style that is fine, that is your defanition of something that can be hard to define but it does not make it so in other peoples eyes, after all it has clearly been said time and time again not only by the seniors but the man himself that it is not, but hey ho horses for courses.

    Me personally I dont care much for this Concepts V's Original, Jackie Chan V's Hong King Fuey, it is all just slices of a big cake like the Bible can be interpreted in many different ways.

    Take a look at the Bible, The Koran and the Torra, all basically the same beleif system but with very different interpretations on how that beleif system should be interpreted. None of them are wrong, they are simply just interpreting the same message in a different way. Whether you agree or not with them is another matter.

    And who met who first is neither here nor there, but you cant deny the fact, Bob Breen is the first in Europe, no matter what people tell you and he should be given credit for that. He is the father of JKD in Europe and trust me he certainly knows his stuff inside out and back again, whether he decides to show it to you is another matter and a matter of trust I guess.

    And yes a finger jab if it is taught like a spear hand is hard too pull off as there is a higher chance of breaking you fingures on his skull not a very ecconomical appraoch to a technique you might say? If you have to practice too much to get it and you know there is still a good chance it wont work then maybe you should think about discarding it, if you practice it and it starts to work effectively in a very short space of time then there is your economy of motion is it not?, For instance if you take just a few minutes to asses what is inherantly weak about the technique and why it is so 'Difficult' to pull off, it takes but a little common sence and a few seconds for a person to show you a way to have a 99% chance of getting those little breakable digits deep into some eye sockets, and that way has worked for me everytime so far to great effect.

    Ask your self questions all the time, is my kick as strong as their kicks? No. So why not change it to the stronger way? Is my punch as powerfull and as fast as those guys? No. Then why not change it to the more powerfull and fast way? If you can because you have to do it this way because the 'Style' dictates you must do it like this in order to call yourself one of our gang then you again have just missed the point and you are blinkered by the hype that all martial arts systems and styles suffer from. We do it this way because we are the best and they do it that way because they are not...

    Where as if you think more on the lines of 'I do it my way because for me it is more effective for me' Then you are more JKD than you care to realise. That my freind is what JKD is all about, simple and effective for you the individual, not because you are told it is, because you know it is...

    Best regards

    Pat

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2011
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I dont think you have offended MMA Fans at all, all they are asking for is referances that can be checked and double checked just to make sure it is not a load of hype. And trust me Wikipidia is not exactly one of the most reliable places to gain info, yes there is some very good stuff on there but they do also take peoples word for things if no proof is given.

    I have read certain people are directly related to Lapu-Lapu on Wiki but not one person has ever been able to show me any proof of that fact.

    Not all that is written is truth, sometimes it is simply made up so it makes the story sound more exciting and much more entertaining for the consumption of its followers.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Browneagle. I just checked out lethwei on wiki and the only referance I found was that 3 American Kickboxers where knocked out in the first international tournament held in the last few years? No mention of any UFC champions and I am sure some more well known Muay Thai Champions would have faired better as both lethwei and muay Thai compete on a far more regular basis with the lethwei fighters having varying degree of success but the that would always depend on the individual fighters.

    For instance I attended the Asea Games in Manila a few years ago and the Philippine Yaw Yan team won the Muay Thai category and the Vietnamese team beat the Philippines in the Arnis event. So I don't see your point.

    By the way the Vietnamese team was dam good. I fought one of them a week later in the semi finals of the world Arnis championships now that boy was fast on his feet. But that does not make Viet Vo Dao any better than Arnis. Remeber it is not the art that makes you the best it is the individual that makes the art the best. And trust me there will be terrible fighters in JKD as there is in any group, style or system.

    Best regards

    Pat
     

Share This Page