Feb He said it was "atomicaly" correct! LOL but your right its anatomically correct too. Saying something is correct for its function doesn't imply other ways to be incorrect for theirs. There is different ways to Rome. I go for the Straight lead way because its quicker, in a safer car with less chances to break down. it can carry a lot of load too. a lot!
So what your saying is: What you consider (based on Bruce's experience and writings) the best way of doing things (for example power side forward) = JKD ? I'm sorry, I'm sure you train hard but that approach to training really doesn't reflect the vast majority of Bruce's writing on JKD. Call it Lee fu or Bruce jitsu or Jan Fan kung fu but JKD it really really isn't. If Bruce had lived do you think he'd still be teaching and fighting in the same way? In his eyes you wouldn't be the converted, you'd still be in the congregation.
No offence to you but I did a lot of reading on his writings too before I started training in it. I'd rather be told what JKD is by some one who has direct lineage to at least 2 of his original students than some one who just reads. And I'm not going to "speculate" what he would do if he was still alive anymore than you try to "speculate" what I would be in his eyes. But I will leave you with this thought to give you an idea what and how he probably would be teaching his art. "I fear Not the man who has practiced 10000 Kicks once, But I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times." I'm sure you've READ that somewhere. With respect
Although I haven't trained with a 'JKD' instructor I've been massively influenced by Bruce Lee since I first read him about eight years ago. Since then I've studied numerious arts and without his writing I don't think I'd be the martial artist I am today, although I'm still only on the first rung of a very long ladder. I consider that I train with a JKD mindset, although you would obvious disagree with me there. I've certainly heard that quote before, attibuted from everyone from Bruce to the Shaolin and everyone inbetween. I've thrown my low right roundhouse kick a lot over the years, its getting better. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree overall, I don't see either of us convincing the other any time soon. I will check out those books you mentioned, any particular biography of Bruce that you would reccomend? I've never read one and theres alot to choose from.
It is very Hard to find a good JKD practitioner and even harder to find a decent JKD instructor. One who lives the art and guides the student correctly not just one who carrys the Tag. But I would recommend you to at least consider to seek one just to get an idea of the attitude and mindset. You have been keen enough to explore many arts through Bruce's influence so it would only be fair to at least explore his too. You'd be surpirsed how progressive a good teacher of his original teachings is and how much individuality in expression there is amongst the students. I've only read one biography by Robert Clouse (director of ETD) Some Amazing stories in there and very interesting read but you won't know what to truly believe and what to take with a pinch of salt. I also have Linda Lees "the man I only knew" but funnily enough I haven't got around to reading it all. I'm not sure if those books are still in print though. All the best with your martial quest.
Doh!ok maybe I'm missing the point but I assumed it was a typo. What does he mean by "atomically correct"? Also, I believe the context in which the statement was made does indeed imply that other methods are incorrect (as is often the case when trying to make a case of the superiority of one method over another) and one I've heard from many JKDers. Not trying to jump to conclusions - just saying. Out of interest (based on your previous reply to Snoop), who to your mind are the current best exponents of JKD from a teacher (OBLS) and also latter gen (student) perspective? Cheers.
thank you for taking an interest in my opinion on OBLS. I hope you have an interest in actually finding out for yourself too! Incidently We shared the same assumption about the typo! LOL but who knows maybe nuclear physics will prove the validity of the straight lead too one day. LOL As far as knowledge of the original art goes Guru Dan Inosanto is indeed the most knowledgable remaining with us his positive yet humble energies will hopefully inspire us all for generation. But I hope no people who strive to preserve bruces art the best way they know is offended by this. And yes If I could, I will experience as many perspectives of it as I could. My opinion as it stands at this moment in time after having looked at a few different schools, is that Tommy Carruthers is indeed living the art of bruce lee. From working with his students and meeting him and taking part in his forums, I feel he is passionately thinking about how bruce would have wanted it to work and evolve. It's one thing to know & teach the contents of an art, but an entirely different thing to use the teachings for getting results that were meant to be achieved through it. His group are very focused on developing skill. As in "Gung fu" focused effort over a long period of time is essential. But further more simplicity is the virtue. The door which Bruce was showing the way to for us to walk through. A good instructor is able to instruct less while the student learns more. I could not understand the real meaning of this until I came across Tommy. Many instructors preach simplicity but don't practice it. "perfection is only achieved when there is nothing left to "take away". Even if you believe in exploring other arts in order to adapt to the JKD functionality, experience with some one like Mr Carruthers is bound to give you the mentality for it and a solid foundation on the JKD structure before your exploration. Do not judge how he teaches by the "you tube" clips you may see of him they are only demonstrational and were hardly his own idea to go up on the tube in the first place. He speaks highly of his mentors as well (Like Jesse Glover and Ted Wong RIP) Its hard to answer the "student" part as every one who teaches is also learning. But I also like the Wednesday Night Group Instructors' (Tim Tacket, Bob bremer, Jim sewell) knowledge & attitude. They are well aware of the subtle different interpretations of JKD and rather than saying our way is the best they teach the different intepretations and logically breakdown how and when they would be more appropriate and for whom. But tommy is indeed in another league with his agenda. I've heard good things about others I hope to check out other instructors and students of them as well. But this is where I stand for now. Hope this helps
A good strong lead hand is a must fo any art and not exclusive to JKD and that straight lead can be either the right or left as long as it works for the individual. Now I do have a bit of a gripe when I hear things such as 'I think he is teaching it as Bruce would want it to be taught'. See to me that says the person is simply mimicking and teaching how he thinks Bruce would teach when in fact they should teach it they way they themselves want it to be taught. Teach it according to their own personal expeariances and not simply on and assumption. Teach from your heart and from your personal experience and be true to yourself regardless of what others thing. Don't teach how you ink others want it to b taught because all your doing is lying to your students and yourself and you are doing your art an injustice as you are simply a product of how other people perceive it to be and not a true individual martial artist. As far as I am concerned the real don daddy of JKD here in Europe is Bob BREEN he is by far head and shoulders above he rest. Best regards Pat
Thanks for the reply Browneagle. For the record I'd agree with your statements as far as Guro Dan and Tommy (although both are at opposite ends of the spectrum with regard to Bruce's legacy). I've never had any first hand experience of WNG or their instructors, so I can't really comment, however judging by what I've seen in vidoes etc. their approach is inclusive and they have some skillful guys. I'd also include the likes of Rick Young and Yori Nakamura in there, who I believe are both top level JKD guys and well rounded martial artists (most times the 2 are mutually exclusive IMO). I've moved away from the "strict" JKD scene as I find too much fanaticism, frauds and the cult of the Sifu reigning supreme. Best thing I ever did as far as personal development goes, however that doesn't discount my belief in the value of some of the strategies it employs (e.g. some of the elements of trapping, strong side forward and the straight lead) - but only as part of a wider outlook. Just my experiences, thanks for sharing yours.
Excuse the typo's I am posting from my phone as the computer is fubar at the moment and being repaired.
Oh I hear you on that one thats the main reason I pulled away from the main stream JKD scene. There are quite a few fanatic armchair Bruce Lee experts out there who can quote you line by line, page number and how many minutes hours and seconds into a film of how Bruce told them in a dream how they are right and everything else is far down the evolutionary ladder of things yet when it comes to it they wouldn't know the difference between a fight and a bag of crisps. But there are those who are great exponents of the art and great ambassadors for JKD unfortunately its the fanatics and arm chair wanna be experts who give the real exponents bad press. Best regards Pat
Just need to clarify! Tommy does indeed teach from his real life experiences and as honestly as he can that is why I said he teaches it the way Bruce wanted it to be taught. If he sees something in the curriclulm may not work as good he will get rid of it and choose one which is more direct and applicable to wider senarios (whether its his, bruce's or some one elses but he will clarify that). He also realises that Bruces later teachings are not for everyones natural abilities so he is introducing an assessment to address that to make sure what he teaches works for every body that is willing to put the hours in.
Noticed this and thought I'd share just in case its of interest to anyone, unfortunately I'm in Wales that weekend otherwise I'd be seriously tempted to make a trip: http://www.rick-young.co.uk/Guro.htm I'm considering training at Rick Young's place later on this year for a week if holiday/money issues work out. Has anyone trained there?
I am sure he does teach from the heart most good instructors do. And I am sure if he thought someone would be more effective in a left lead even though they were right handed he would them be more effective. Which begs the question do you really have to be strong side forward to be an effective and efficient JKD exponent? But the reason I said I had a gripe about the I teach it the way Bruce would have wanted it taught is a many layered on for instance. * the amount of Bruce Lee wanna be's I have heard claim that yet could not fight there way out of a wet paper bag yet claim to know how many hairs he had on his head is astonishing. * how do they know what he wanted, they never met him and most of them were not even alive when he died. * they have seen all the films and read all the books but chances are the nearest they ever got to a real fight is on their Xbox 360. * they can't seem to get it into their heads that Bruce Lee was just a man and like everyone else he had flaws and did nor have all the answers. * they firmly believe Bruce invented MMA when in fact many people back in the 60's where already mixing their martial arts and experimenting. MMA is nothing new it's been going on for centuries take a look at old pugilism before the evolution of boxing. I could go on. Best regards Pat
Tommy's school, drills every thing in a 360 degree radius. This inclues all the pressure testing as well as full protective gear stuff. The idea is that not every fight breaks out from an onguard position. So they practice things from complete nuetral standing as well. To start with though the focus is on your strong side. And they use the weak side as little as possible. It is encouraged not to underestimate the weakside because the strong side will act as a hinge if you ever had to. ! the philosophy is that when you aim to end an encounter in as little time as possible and smash the opponents in the spots that will put him down... speed, economy, timing and distance takes presidence to power. Sufficient power will come with correct technique and speed anyway. Thus they fight how they train and trian how they fight as far as that principal goes. My personal opinion is this! Recent studies show that practicing your weakside actually helps you improve performance in your strong side because your functional symmetry increases giving you better synchronisation through better neuro muscular balance! But this has shown to only be of value when you have already reached some where around an %80 Platue with your strong side! Not many people have even that!.. Interestingly enough Bruce had this theory 40+ years back! and reflected it in his own training. So No! Bruce did not have all the answers! But as a public figure he was sure ahead of his time. Like yourself Tuhon Pat nothing irritates me more than the fanboys who chat nonesence out of their ignorance and the dogmatism that Lee and his like would be tumbling in their graves over. But I recognise his genius in his street fighting philosophy every day and I'm sure you do as well because what he achieved in a mere few years of his life was exceptional. I would go one step further and say every martial art that exist is a result of some level of cross training and mixing things. In the case of Karate is was over 600 years of cross training. As far as MMA goes even bruce would not want to take credit for it as his methods were geared more towards real fighting without the rules rounds and refs. But he clearly would have endeavoured to help progress it like he did with his times Full contact fighters. Vale tudo existed since the 50s. Sambo since the 30s, even Shidokan Karate was founded at the time JKD was only coming to the headlines so I don't see any relation with Bruce and the UFC MMA "fad" that we happen to be experiencing now. Its nothing new... Ancient Pankration, Greco Roman, Irainian and indian wrestling was not too different either. They just happen to have higher salaries now.
It is not a fad. There was a thread about that subject awhile back that addressed that issue very well but I can't find it by searching. Suffice to say MMA is about as much a fad as Judo, BJJ, modern day boxing, the birth of kickboxing, or any other big 'evolution' of the martial arts. Argueably it has had a bigger impace than any other, although they are obviously all interlinked. Something like vale tudo was tiny in comparision to MMA, and not only are the salaries higher, so are the physical and technical ability of the fighters. We're seeing crazy things now, like the recent matrix kick. Quite ironic that Bruce's most famous film opens with what is essentially an MMA fight, finished by a submission via armbar. The fighters even wore MMA style gloves well before such designs were common place. Taken in conjuction with all his writings on combining the atributes of different arts together its not that surprising that people call him the father of MMA, even if thats an exageration. I would say though that he was one of a number of factors that helped drive the idea forward.
so you are aware I'm not putting MMA down. I just measure its significance in the martial arts world on a total different scale than I do JKD. There are successful MMA clubs who are starting to base their stand up fighting on JKD. But even they admit that it is adjusted to fit into the sport arena with bare feet, gloves and periodic training depending on when you are in your season. JKD has no season!, you train to be able to fight your best ANYTIME without warming up ! Bruces Film action hardly resembles JKD. Ask anyone of his students. Also the individual components that make up the elements of MMA were originally extracted from Mixed disciplin arts in the first place that's why I see it as a bit of a fallacy and thus a Fad in trade. Yes so was the Judo, K-1, Full contact and the Ninjutsu fad in previous decades. They continue but their popularity is overwhelmed by "MMA" right now. The same is likely to happen with MMA.
I'm not so sure about that. MMA is inclusive in a way that other things aren't. People who like judo or muay thai or even karate these days (with two of MMA's biggest stars sporting karate backgrounds) can find something to latch onto in the sport. Even people who aren't particularly into sports (like myself) can see enough resemblance to things that DO matter to us that we can draw something useful and interesting from it.
