Jeet Kune Do

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Thomas Vince, Mar 5, 2002.

  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Slightly off topic.

    This question mainly to Yoda, but also to anyone who has something of value to contribute;

    What role would Bruce Lee be playing in the MA now, were he still around ?
     
  2. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Hi Andy

    I don't think Bruce Lee would be involved in the martila arts now if he were alive. I think he saw ut as a vehicle for his growth & would have outgrown it.

    His famous letter to himself "My definate cheif aim" makles not mention of martial arts - just a movie career & earning wads of money.
     
  3. Darzeka

    Darzeka New Member

    Just back to the no ways vs. all ways point.

    These are both absolutes that lead to the same point by going opposite directions.

    Picture Martial Arts as a journey (as said by many people ). Now when you pick a martial art to learn this is a road from wher you are to the horizon (your final destination of physical, mental and spiritual harmony resulting in something resembling the ultimate MA. ). If you then learn a different MA is this a new road or a widening of the old one?
    Probably both depending on the differences on the two arts (and is also the comparison in no way and all ways). If you were immortal it would be possible to continue learning until the road was so wide it was a complete circle around you, stretching to the horizon in all directions (no way) or that you could have created so many new roads that they all joined together to create one whole road that streches to the horizon in all directions (all ways).

    Both of these statements - no way and all ways will result in the same thing and also bring you to final destination - where you started - only through different means. As these statements are both absolutes of the same value then they cannot be compared nor contradicting.

    If anyone recongnises a similarity between this thought and Raymond Feist's character Pug's self discovery of his magic potential in the riftwar saga it is because it was the basis for my theory's birth.
     
  4. HKD

    HKD New Member

    i have never heard of Bruce Lee training kenpo with ed parker.
    HKD
     
  5. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    There is some contradiction between the philosophy

    "Using no way as the way : Using no limitation as limitation"

    "Using all ways : bound by none"

    and the fact that it was based on a few core styles, e.g.;

    Jun Fan Gung Fu
    Filipino Martial Arts
    Muay Thai
    Silat
    Groundfighting (BJJ / Shoot)

    I don’t know much about JKD, just trying get my head around it. But, could a club take karate, judo, kendo etc and using the same philosophy and call it JKD?? I’m sure not!?

    I agree with your quote Yoda “I think the vast majority of "classical" arts have progressed in their outlook - even if they won't admit it” I think this is very true, they had to, to stay effective. I train in Kung Fu, a few styles but mainly Wing Chun. Many aspects have progressed from the traditional style and we’ve incorporated, kickboxing, eskrima & groundfighting. In many ways I feel where heading in the JKD direction.

    So maybe what I’m asking is what do you need to do to qualify as being a JKD club?
    :confused:
     
  6. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    :)

    It all depends on how you see the 1st quote...

    "Using no way as the way"

    or...

    "Using no way as the way"

    Also, when you say "It WAS based on blah blah" you are straight away into a historical look into what "was". JKD is about what "is".

    Bruce Lee did not incorporate...

    Filipino Martial Arts
    Muay Thai
    BJJ/Shoot
    Silat

    ...into his method. HIS method being Jun Fan Gung Fu - his PROCESS being JKD.

    I feel you need a traceable lineage to Bruce Lee. Not that the combination of arts you mentioned is bad - but why try to hang a "Bruce Lee link" on it if it is not there - marketing? Money? Because Bruce Lee sells?

    If you create something then take credit for it and let it live or die on it's own merits - don't use the name of a man who died nearly 30 years ago to justify your own genius :D
     
  7. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Actually, these are the same thing ... just different ways of phrasing the same concept.

    Eh?

    I'm not sure what state BJJ was in in the '60s ... but I don't think Bruce ever had any exposure to it. And Shoot didn't exist until the 80s. Bruce certainly had some exposure to FMA, Muay Thai, and Silat ... but his art (Jun Fan) wasn't based on any of them.

    The sources that I usually hear with regards to the foundation of Jun Fan are Wing Chun, Fencing, and Boxing. I know he also drew some from Savate and other arts ... but I don't know what they were (not being a JKD guy, this knowledge isn't my forte ... what I know about it, I've learned from peripheral exposure to Jun Fan/JKD and its proponents).

    I believe that a link to BL is necessary and a working knowledge of Jun Fan ... in fact, I'd even say that one should have Jun Fan as his/her core/foundation ... but they should definitely have a firm knowledge of JF/JKD (in my opinion).

    I think without lineage and JF/JKD then using BL's name or the name of JF/JKD is false advertising.

    Having a poster of BL or something in the school (out of respect for the man) is one thing. Claiming to be a JF/JKD instructor or using the name to bring in more students (which is the only reason I can see for claiming JF/JKD without lineage or the system) is a whole different ball of wax.

    That's my 2 cents, anyway.

    Mike
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2002
  8. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Boxing was definitely a major part of the development of JKD. Bruce Lee worked with Muhammad Ali alot on developing punching techniques and power, as well as understanding the concepts behind boxing.

    The Footwork in JKD is modified French Fencing footwork. This is where JKD gets the mobility and speed from. The movements actually generate alot of power behind strikes in a fluid motion and high rate of speed.
     
  9. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Hmmmmmmmm

    Let me tweak that just a little WAYA...

    As far as I know Bruce Lee never worked out with Ali. He used to watch his fight on tape - in a mirror to see it right lead - but I'm 99.9% sure they never worked out. I doubt they met.

    SOME of the footwork in Jun Fan Gung Fu does come from Fencing - but Fencing won't teach you how to side step or pivot very well. The linear step & slide, push shuffle, burnin steop etc do come from Fencing but are heaviliy modified (raised rear heel, angle of the feet etc).
     
  10. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Mike you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I know the phrases have the same meaning. The contradiction was between the phrases and the way that JKD is based on core elements. I was just quoting Yoda with his core elements, not trying to say what JKD was based on during the 60's. And trying to say in theory would it possible to base JKD on Karate, Judo etc. because by reading Bruce Lee's philosophy that would seem possible!?

    I train in Kung Fu, its mainly Wing Chun, but lots of other things thrown in to make the classical wing chun a lot more effective and realistic for use today. Not that we want to advertise a Bruce Lee - JKD school, I think more credit is owed to our founder teachers. But, a lot of people have used Bruce Lee's philosophy's, I know this doesn't give them any right to pretend to be a JKD school, but should some credit be given to the work he did?
     
  11. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    If you want to credit Bruce Lee then something like "A modern version of Wing Chun, modified using the ideas & philosophy of Bruce Lee" would be fine. Although credit is a good thing to give - I don't see why a modern engineer who comes up with a new way to wire a light bulb should need to credit Eddison.

    When you look a little deeper into it - people who are influenced by his "philosophy" but who's art bears NO resemblance to what he actually physically taught, are using things he took from elsewhere - not things he actually formulated ot did. If your "influence" comes from things such as the quotes used above rather than by using his actual training structure & methods - then you'd be better off quoting Krishnamurti or Sun Tzu as your influence than Bruce Lee. *That doesn't bring in students the way Bruce Lee's name does though.



    It's a question of motives, and in my experience the motive for citing Bruce Lee is usually a financial one.

    *I'm not having a go at you or your art here. Just expressing a wider view based on what I've experienced. You motives may well be different.
     
  12. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I promise not to open a JKD school! ;)

    I'm only really interested in getting better, which I feel involves moving away from some of the classical kung fu styles. And I think JKD philosophies appear to be a good guidline.

    I've learnt boxing, kickboxing, jujitsu, judo and even a bit of karate in parts. Suppose I'm just following my own path, feels like its going around in circles at times.

    You've got to admit its tempting for people to advertise as a JKD school, 30 years after his death he's still one of the most famous people to have ever lived. I wonder what he'd make of it all now.
     
  13. waya

    waya Valued Member

    Yoda,
    Thanks for the clarification, I'm a bit new to JKD so I am still in the learning what is what stage.

    I should have clarified that I was referring to the forward and backward footwork JKD uses.
    I forgot where I read that he and Ali met, but it could very well be mistaken (such is the life of learning lol).

    Rob
     
  14. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I don't know if they met or not. But I read Ali was a one of Bruce's hero's. Apparantly Bruce bought a lot of films of Ali's boxing matches which he studied to learn about footwork. It said he even watched it through a mirrow so they both had right foot forward.

    I read a quote were Bruce said he'd love to teach Ali how to kick, then he would have been one hell of a fighter!
     
  15. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    anyone can teach jeet kune do as there is no such thing as JKD only the artist and his art.
     
  16. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    I've read all of Funakoshi's writings and he's been a major influence on me. I feel that I really understand what he was saying and what he intended. I've trained in Tai Chi and was a Golden Glove boxer.

    I think I'll start teaching martial arts and I'll call it "Karate" because I have so much respect for Funakoshi ... and, like I said, I've read all his stuff and it's had a major influence on me and it's really a concept anyway, not a specific system.

    ================ (the above is purely satirical)

    Does that make any sense? I don't think so but that, in effect, is what people are doing when they call what they do "Jeet Kune Do" but have no foundation in Jun Fan or lineage to Bruce.

    At least, that's my opinion.

    Mike
     
  17. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    :)


    Yes - agreed 100%
     
  18. johndoch

    johndoch upurs

    did bruce lee say that you should not be bound by style or system? So why is it that when people teach jeet kune do they emphasize the filipino or jun fan when really any training in the art that works for you is at the essence of jeet kune do.

    Jeet Kune Do its just a name imho
     
  19. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    JKD *is* just a name. So is Shotokan.

    But why would anyone who doesn't teach Jun Fan and have lineage to Bruce want to claim JKD? The only reason I can think of is to play on the marketability of Bruce's name and the JKD name. Everyone's JKD will be different.

    In a way, we *all* do JKD ... in that we each seek our own path ... which is the essence of JKD.

    But it's also the essence of every martial art out there. JKD just expresses that concept better than some other arts.

    I just don't understand why (aside from marketing) anyone would *want* to use the name JKD if they don't have lineage to Bruce.

    And marketing, in my opinion, isn't a good reason.

    So ... maybe you can give me another reason I haven't thought of. I'm open-minded ... but I've never been presented with a good reason for doing this. If you have one, let me know.

    If someone claims to be teaching JKD, then I (and, I would think that most) would assume they have lineage to Bruce. In my opinion, if they don't, then they're, at best, unintentionally misleading people and, at worst, they're using false advertising.

    It'd be no different than me claiming to teach Karate if I have no lineage to a Karate system.

    Mike
     
  20. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    I didn’t realize how much you guys hated people opening JKD schools that really aren’t qualified to do so, does this happen a lot!?

    I did ask the question of what it takes to be called a JKD school, only out of curiosity (or playing devils advocate), because I was confused with everything I’d read. Its easy with other styles, you learn it then you teach it. It didn’t seem that straight forward with JKD, it seemed to be based on this and that, then have these principles which threw everything up in the air! Quotes from Bruce Lee which say “Style of no style” and then how he regretted naming it. I would have agreed with Johndoch’s comment but I’ve read some more. And my totally unqualified opinion on the matter is;

    I would call JKD an art rather than a style, because art is a very personal expression. At least thats my opinion. But, JKD can’t be just any mess you make up. JKD is still based on certain principles techniques which can only be learnt from a qualified instructor, learn the basics and find the ones that work for you. Then train them and start to make it your own. There are infinite ways to make JKD your own while following common sense ideas like the theory of facing, centre line, footwork or economy of motion. I think its possible to incorporate other systems into JKD if you believe it adds to your fighting style unless it contradicts these principles.

    What Bruce Lee was against was being a clone of your instructor, this would be the classical mess, but not learning anything because it would interfere with your artistic interpretation is another kind of mess altogether.
     

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