[Japan] Japanese Language Study I

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Kappa, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Kappa

    Kappa New Member

    A short introduction:
    I believe that although language learning benefits from learning one step at a time, you have to work on the four basic functions of every language: reading, writing, listening, and speaking. It's important that you work on all four aspects, so every lesson will be working on all of them. Remember, though, you've come to this thread to learn and participate... don't be afraid to ask questions. The best students are the most curious ones.

    During this lesson I will be making use of the hiragana syllabary for didactic purposes, but if you're not up to this level and have never seen the symbols before, don't worry, as the syllabaries are the next lesson.

    That said...

    LISTENING AND SPEAKING:
    Japanese Pronunciation

    The first thing one you have to learn about Japanese, before starting that is, is that it's 100% a phonetic language, without the accents and inflections of English and other Germanic-influenced languages. It's important that you know this because you have to set yourself to be able to listen and speak in a language without the tricky parts of English that you use everyday--there is no "kn" or "ght" in "knight", no "ou" in "mourn" or "you", and the like. Most importantly, no "L" sound.

    Japanese pronunciation relies on basic vocables made of one or two letters. Like every other language, it has five vowels: A, E, I, O, U. You pronounce them as you would SHORT VOWELS:

    [​IMG]

    Japanese uses these consonants to make diphthongs (or two letter sounds): R, Y, M, H, N, T, S and K. If we took KA, it would sound like "CAT" and not like "KAY"; if we took MA it'd sound like "MAT" and not like "MATE".

    There are only two exceptions, which are read in words that use "-oo" and "-uu": both of these sound exactly like their short vowel counterparts, except you drag on the sound juuuuust a little bit longer (and therefore, are LONG VOWELS). More on these tricky little monsters later.

    EXERCISE I: Look around you. Are you alone? Good. Aren't you? Then tell whomever's in the room that you're about to sing, and that they should beware of that. :cool: (If you like audience, though, all the better!)

    Practice your spelling with your mouth WIDE OPEN. Open big and wide and say "aaaah, eeeh, eeee, oooh, oooo" loud and clear. It sounds stupid, but if you don't practice now, you'll regret it when we've come to actual word spelling. Done? Now add the consonants: "kaaaah, keeeeeeh, keeeee, koooooh, kooooooo", and so on. R, Y, M, H, N, T, S and K, don't forget!

    Next up: syllabaries!
     
  2. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Oh dear! B+ for effort, E for execution (F is a fail!)!

    There are five problems with it so far:

    1) You've used the English vowel order a e i o u, which is a huge problem. It's completely wrong and will hamper anybody's memorization and immediate progress, not to mention render your students incapable of looking anything up in a Japanese dictionary! The correct order is a i u e o.

    2) For some reason your suggested order for practising these vowels with consonants is backwards! It should be k s t n h m y r (w)!

    3) You don't mention 'shi', 'chi' or 'tsu': vital exceptions to the rule.

    4) Some of your pronunciation guidelines are wrong! While I'm trying to remain positive (I think what you're trying to do is a valiant and potentially very useful resource) these things are easy enough to look up with five minutes on Google or Wiki (which while in many cases in innacurate is fine for most linguistics/phonetics and the like).

    The 'a' is most definitely not as in 'ask', 'cat' or 'mat'. That is a near-open frontal unrounded vowel (a kind of a flat sound with the lips and tongue in a rigid position represented by the symbol 'ae' together in standard IPA). The Japanese 'a' is like a short version of the 'a' in 'palm': technically, it is an open back unrounded vowel.

    The first example

    The second

    The 'u' is very similar to the 'oo' in 'book', but be careful not to put your lips forward and rounded as in the English pronunciation. The tongue is placed as far back as you can. The Japanese 'u' is technically found only in Japanese and Swedish according to Wiki.

    The 'o' is as in a short form of 'caught' in British RP/Aussie and 'row' in General American. Using 'ornery' as an example isn't very good: it's a word only used in American English so Commonwealth readers won't necessarily be able to pronounce it correctly, plus there's a huge difference between the rhotic pronunciation and the non-rhotic - the rhotic pronunciation will make it very difficult to separate the vowel from the 'r'.

    5) You say there is no 'l'. The Japanese 'r' is often described as being between an 'r' and an 'l'. In many pop songs the sound is almost completely 'l'. I suggest trying to pronounce a normal 'r' but with your tongue flicking off the front of your palate, and not moving your lips forward.

    Pronunciation guide. If in doubt click on the IPA symbol at the top of each column and you'll get to a page with the equivalent English pronunciation.

    Final tip: Japanese is a ventriloquists' dream! I can conduct the whole of my day's conversation without moving my lips forward at all... in fact, barely using my lips! (It would be a bit unnatural, but possibly not noticed until I got to 'p' or 'b'...!).

    Good luck with the next one!

    頑張って!(がんばって)
     
  3. Kappa

    Kappa New Member

    Hi, Mr. Punch.

    First and foremost, please don't use makeshift furigana on me. I know how to read kanji, and it sort of feels like you're being patronizing just because you don't agree on my explaining methods.

    Second, you're talking to someone whose mothertongue is Spanish. You're hard pressed to be explaining phonetical spelling to someone who's used it all her life.

    Third, if it takes only a five minute search on Wiki or Google, then I might as well give it up and forget about trying to concentrate it all for the people who're only starting, right? They might as well find it all on Google!

    I think you forget that I'm starting this thread at the most basic level for people who have not been immersed in Japanese for as long as you have. Sometimes, simplifying and adapting is best for starting AND THEN going on to exceptions like the vowel order (I know this because I learned vowel pronunciation first in the English order, and then, within a week or two, began to shift to Japanese order. I intended to do this shift within the next few lessons--maybe you've been into Japanese for so long, you haven't realized that one tends to having mistakes when trying to change something you've done all your life right off the bat). Advanced students, who've been working on kanji and can construct sentences already, deserve a different thread, but I regret to inform I don't have eight arms (and work and study as well).

    Also, I would like an explanation as to how a student that is just learning kana is going to be able to use a Japanese character dictionary--up to where I know, the best eiwa dictionaries use romaji (which extends itself to internet dictionaries as well--I didn't move on from Jeffrey's J/E Dictionary on to a Japanese resource like Goo or Excite or the Japanese wiki until I had a firm grip on my Japanese vocab and listening).

    The only point to which I agree is the usage of L/R. I will correct that while preparing next lesson.

    Finally, thank you for your effort in correcting... but you DID notice that I said syllabaries were next, right? I skipped WA, WO, shi, chi, tsu, N, because their usage/exceptions are explained on charts I built for the next lesson, which in turn links to the first grammar lesson. So far I only wanted to explain vowels pronunciation. The pronunciation will be polished in conversations held over Skype, and more resources will be shown with time, so please be sure to keep an eye out on this but do not judge this fast.

    Oh, and on a last note: I don't want foreign comments like these to be distracting to the readers of the learning threads (I mean, the point of the thread is to post lessons and receive questions and problems by the students), so if you're willing to be an active participant, we could exchange e-mails (or Skype, or MSN--whatever rocks your boat). I definitely wouldn't mind having a second, more fluent hand participant in planning the lessons.

    このスレッドを見守ってください!
     
  4. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Hi Kappa,

    There was nothing makeshift about it! :) I used it because people who can't read any kanji might be reading the thread - plus I've no idea what your kanji level is. There was nothing patronising about it.

    That's irrelevant. I was using standard IPA, and you were making a pigs ear out of your explanation of the vowel sounds to English speakers. They were wrong, full stop.

    I think what you're doing is great! But there's no point reinventing the wheel. Resources already exist, so why you don't sometimes save yourself some work and point people to them I don't know.

    Nope, I don't think I do. I teach language, mostly to basic (junior high school) students, and to absolute beginners (elementary school) and have done so to adults of all levels too, and...

    You're not a qualified language teacher are you? I do this for a living and what you've just stated is plain wrong. There is no advantage to teaching someone the wrong way (ie the wrong order, half-arsed pronunciation etc) because it's easier for them. It's then harder in the long run as they get confused. If you want I can point you to probably hundreds of studies that will back me up on this.

    I studied hard, and learned the kana (both sets), reading and writing, in three weeks. From then I started using kana based Japanese-English dictionaries, and for that matter a textbook written completely in hiragana. I'd advise anyone serious about learning the language, even as a hobby, to go for the same method.

    You can agree or disagree all you like. While the order thing is a matter of opinion, your guidance in vowel pronunciation was wrong, whether you agree or not.
    Fair enough.

    I'll back off your thread now.

    Next time I have anything to suggest I'll PM you first.
     
  5. Kappa

    Kappa New Member

    Don't have much to say other than two things:
    Nope, I'm not a qualified language teacher (how could I be? I'm only starting my BA this winter), I just happen to really like studying languages. I'm not basing these lessons off any patented teaching system: I'm only trying to compile what's worked for me as a self-student with no time or money to devote to real classes (up until last year, when I was accepted into my college's language institute) off my notes and exercises over the past three years. It obviously looks botchy and of dubious academic value to a qualified professional like you, but hey, it worked for me. If it works for anybody else here too, I'll be happy. If not, they can tell me off and I'll stop right where I am.

    I thought I should too.

    Then I realized there's no PM button anywhere to be seen. :banana: Am I missing something here?
     
  6. Mr Punch

    Mr Punch Homicidal puppet

    Oh that's right, I don't think you can PM or be PMed until you've got 50 posts.
     
  7. Baichi

    Baichi Valued Member

    Would this Kappa dude please go back in the river and stop trying to teach a language he is not qualified to teach?
     
  8. Kappa

    Kappa New Member

    ... *sigh* For the second time, "this Kappa dude" is actually a girl.

    Nobody seems to want me teaching, so I suppose here's the end. I'm done up to here with the insulting comments. At least Mr Punch did an effort in explaining where he thought I was wrong, but Baichi's comment make it much clearer that if I'm not sporting this shining medal that reads "qualified teacher", then whatever I do past this point will obviously be a flop. So be it.

    I'm nothing but a student with an idea, and so I'm sorry if I dissapointed the people who wanted assistance in learning. I never started this with the idea of showing off or whatever image people got... all I wanted was to keep my studies fresh while helping others learn the language. I'll just go back to studying alone... at least nobody insults me for not being qualified to do that.
     
  9. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Don't give up...The problem as I see it is that once you set yourself up as the one to "teach" Japanese here, people expect certain things...Some people need a professional I guess...That's fine, there's plenty of places they can go pay for that service..

    What you're offering is help right?I mean, that's what I read in your posts..That you'll throw up some things, other people will ask questions and we'll all try and work out an answer that fits...No?

    So, who cares if other people complain (And they will...)..If they want someone with a teachin license then there are good institutions around to cater for them..Let them go there..

    I would suggest perhaps making your posts a touch less direct?Or confrontational?(Hard to judge of course...)..But they come across as being a little "sure" of your ability..When of course, we're all learning....It might work better to be less sure and present what you think while asking for advice or suggestions from others here like myself and Punch...

    Don't give it up because one guy moans about you not having a license and trying to teach..Who cares?You'll be doing a good favour for most of those here who don't have access to Japanese classes, and as long as we all work close on this no one should lose out...

    I don't know..But I would suggest a small tone change, and a large dose of "ignore user" and carry on...It's a good idea, even if not 100% perfect...

    無理しなくてもいいけどね。
     
  10. Kapalmuks

    Kapalmuks Valued Member

    Hello Kappa,

    Please go on with your teaching as noone will. Your excitement and enthusiasm to teach other is one of a kind and very rare nowadays.

    Domo Arigato Gozaimashita.
     

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